Quotes on War

#51
#51
CSpindizzy said:
Do you know what the definition of proportion is? Look at geography here. The four provinces you named with the violence occurring in them make up a third of the nation's land size. If you want to toss in that Kurdish north it grows more. Sectarian violence occurs all over Iraq. You have stated that a majority of it occurs in or near Baghdad and the Kurdish regions. Flipping to the Civil War, battles occurred in several states but a majority of them occurred in TN and VA and not all over those states either.
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Like you said, just because battles are occuring in a state does not mean they are occuring all over the state. Yes, violence in occurring in those 4 sectors, however, it is contained within a 45 mile radius from Baghdad proper.

The violence that was occuring, en masse, during the Civil War occured across the whole TN, across all of northern and eastern Virginia, eastern Carolina, north Georgia, north Alabama, western Mississippi, and New Orleans. Again, if those are the restrictions you want to make, go for it.
 
#52
#52
Since you are so delusional on proportions go find some research on areas of states where battles were held and the number of dead in those areas. I see you've omitted western VA, western Carolina, etc. You've picked contained regions.

For example, draw a line from Alexandria, VA to Petersburg, VA, count the casualties from the battles held along that line and then count the casualties from anything outside of that line. Do the same for GA. Go from Chattanooga to Atlanta to Macon to Savannah. Tell me anything outside of that line.

I will take your quote above. You are now saying the violence is contained within 45 miles of Baghdad proper. Let's look at a map. Violence is occurring in Ramallah, Samara, Fallujah, Najaf, Karbala, Hillah, Haditha, Baquba, Ramadi. Taking your words, these cities are outside your 45 mile zone. But yet you say that the violence within those provinces is contained within 45 miles of Baghdad.
 
#54
#54
*NOTE THIS FIGURES DO NOT INCLUDE THOSE WHO DIED IN THE "WEEKS" AFTER THE BATTLE.

The Ten Costliest Battles of the Civil War
Based on total casualties (killed, wounded, missing, and captured) ​

#1​
Date: July 1-3, 1863 ​
Location:Pennsylvania ​
Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee​


Union Commander: George G. Meade​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 75,000​
Union Forces Engaged: 82,289​
Winner:Union ​
Casualties:51,112 (23,049 Union and 28,063 Confederate) ​
#2 ​
Date: September 19-20, 1863 ​
Location: Georgia ​
Confederate Commander: Braxton Bragg ​
Union Commander:William Rosecrans ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 66,326 ​
Union Forces Engaged:58,222 ​
Winner:Confederacy ​
Casualties: 34,624 (16,170 Union and 18,454 Confederate) ​
#3 ​
Date: May 1-4, 1863 ​
Location:Virginia ​
Confederate Commander:Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander:Joseph Hooker ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 60,892 ​
Union Forces Engaged: 133,868 ​
Winner:Confederacy ​
Casualties:30,099 (17,278 Union and 12,821 Confederate) ​
#4 ​



Date: May 8-19, 1864 ​
Location:Virginia ​
Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander:Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 50,000​
Union Forces Engaged:83,000​
Winner: Confederacy ​
Casualties: 27,399 (18,399 Union and 9)000 Confederate)​
#5 ​
Date: September 17, 1862 ​
Location:Maryland ​
Confederate Commander:Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander:George B. McClellan ​
Confederate Forces Engaged:51,844 ​
Union Forces Engaged: 75,316 ​
Winner:Inconclusive (Strategic Union Victory)​
Casualties:26,134 (12,410 Union and 13,724 Confederate) ​

​
 
#55
#55
#6​



Date: May 5-7, 1864 ​
Location:Virginia ​
Confederate Commander:Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged:61,025 ​
Union Forces Engaged:101,895 ​
Winner:Inconclusive ​
Casualties: 25,416 (17,666 Union and 7,750 Confederate) ​
#7 ​
Date: August 29-30, 1862​
Location: Virginia ​
Confederate Commander:Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander:John Pope ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 48,527 ​
Union Forces Engaged:75,696 ​
Winner: Confederacy ​
Casualties: 25,251 (16,054 Union and 9,197 Confederate) ​
#8 ​
Date: December 31, 1862​
Location: Tennessee​
Confederate Commander:Braxton Bragg ​
Union Commander: William S. Rosecrans ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 37,739 ​
Union Forces Engaged: 41,400 ​
Winner: Union ​
Casualties: 24,645 (12,906 Union and 11,739 Confederate) ​
#9​
Date: April 6-7, 1862 ​
Location:Tennessee ​
Confederate Commander:Albert Sidney Johnston/ P. G. T. Beauregard ​
Union Commander:Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged:40,335 ​
Union Forces Engaged:62,682 ​
Winner:Union ​
Casualties: 23,741 (13,047 Union and 10,694 Confederate) ​
#10 ​
Date: February 13-16, 1862 ​
Location:Tennessee ​
Confederate Commander: John B. Floyd/Simon B. Buckner ​
Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 21,000 ​
Union Forces Engaged:27,000 ​
Winner: Union ​
Casualties: 19,455 (2,832 Union and 16,623 Confederate)​
 
#56
#56
CSpindizzy said:
Since you are so delusional on proportions go find some research on areas of states where battles were held and the number of dead in those areas. I see you've omitted western VA, western Carolina, etc. You've picked contained regions.

For example, draw a line from Alexandria, VA to Petersburg, VA, count the casualties from the battles held along that line and then count the casualties from anything outside of that line. Do the same for GA. Go from Chattanooga to Atlanta to Macon to Savannah. Tell me anything outside of that line.

I will take your quote above. You are now saying the violence is contained within 45 miles of Baghdad proper. Let's look at a map. Violence is occurring in Ramallah, Samara, Fallujah, Najaf, Karbala, Hillah, Haditha, Baquba, Ramadi. Taking your words, these cities are outside your 45 mile zone. But yet you say that the violence within those provinces is contained within 45 miles of Baghdad.
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Yes, 7 dead in Baquba over a two month time span. 0 in Ramallah over that time span, 0 in Samara, 0 in Fallujah (which, btw is 43 miles from Baghdad), 35 in Najaf, 3 in Karbala, 0 in Haditha, and 0 in Ramadi. So, besides 1 attack in 2 months in Najaf, which proved very successful, these cities are pretty much not experiencing any casualties from sectarian violence.

So, with this Civil War comparison, you are making a point of what? Besides the fact that the Civil War armies certainly maneuvered, gained ground, held ground, etc., while the apparently very similar situation in Iraq has no sectarian militias assaulting, gaining key terrain, holding in, setting up defenses, etc. It is a series of hit and runs. I will fall for the line of "Iraq is eerily close to a Civil War" once some of these groups are able to mount a defense against any forces and hold their position. From there, the next step they will take is actually begin to gain position and secure their sectors while pressing the attack. That to me would be a formidable opponent and a clear sign that a Civil War is taking place. Again, it is not happening, not even showing any signs of ever happening.
 
#57
#57
Part Two

#6
​



Date: May 5-7, 1864 ​
Location:Virginia ​
Confederate Commander:Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged:61,025 ​
Union Forces Engaged:101,895 ​
Winner:Inconclusive ​
Casualties: 25,416 (17,666 Union and 7,750 Confederate) ​
#7 ​
Date: August 29-30, 1862​
Location: Virginia ​
Confederate Commander:Robert E. Lee ​
Union Commander:John Pope ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 48,527 ​
Union Forces Engaged:75,696 ​
Winner: Confederacy ​
Casualties: 25,251 (16,054 Union and 9,197 Confederate) ​
#8 ​
Date: December 31, 1862​
Location: Tennessee​
Confederate Commander:Braxton Bragg ​
Union Commander: William S. Rosecrans ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 37,739 ​
Union Forces Engaged: 41,400 ​
Winner: Union ​
Casualties: 24,645 (12,906 Union and 11,739 Confederate) ​
#9​
Date: April 6-7, 1862 ​
Location:Tennessee ​
Confederate Commander:Albert Sidney Johnston/ P. G. T. Beauregard ​
Union Commander:Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged:40,335 ​
Union Forces Engaged:62,682 ​
Winner:Union ​
Casualties: 23,741 (13,047 Union and 10,694 Confederate) ​
#10 ​
Date: February 13-16, 1862 ​
Location:Tennessee ​
Confederate Commander: John B. Floyd/Simon B. Buckner ​
Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant ​
Confederate Forces Engaged: 21,000 ​
Union Forces Engaged:27,000 ​
Winner: Union ​
Casualties: 19,455 (2,832 Union and 16,623 Confederate)​
 
#59
#59
Let me correct you on the death tolls. I called a friend of mine who is actually working in the office of the Prime Minister helping to develop their government. Here is what he gave me just over the PAST TWO WEEKS in deaths:

Karbala 8
Samara 5
Baquba 28
Najaf 3
Ramadi 18
Fallujah 6

I will say the official line is that this is a minimum according to the Prime Minister's office. I'm not sure where you are getting your information but when I can find out what the official Iraqi government count is I'd lean more on that than yours. I can even see news reports that give numbers far different than yours. And that is just in a two week period.

A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight for political power or control of an area. Some civil wars are also categorized as revolutions when major societal restructuring is a possible outcome of the conflict. An insurgency, whether successful or not, is likely to be classified as a civil war by some historians if, and only if, organized armies fight conventional battles. Other historians state the criteria for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not).

civil war
n : a war between factions in the same country
 
#60
#60
I called a friend of mine who is actually working in the office of the Prime Minister helping to develop their government.
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Pssstt......you should have said you have an "insider" in the government.

You know, like when someone drops "inside" information from the UT athletic department.........
 
#61
#61
CSpindizzy said:
Let me correct you on the death tolls. I called a friend of mine who is actually working in the office of the Prime Minister helping to develop their government. Here is what he gave me just over the PAST TWO WEEKS in deaths:

Karbala 8
Samara 5
Baquba 28
Najaf 3
Ramadi 18
Fallujah 6

I will say the official line is that this is a minimum according to the Prime Minister's office. I'm not sure where you are getting your information but when I can find out what the official Iraqi government count is I'd lean more on that than yours. I can even see news reports that give numbers far different than yours. And that is just in a two week period.

A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight for political power or control of an area. Some civil wars are also categorized as revolutions when major societal restructuring is a possible outcome of the conflict. An insurgency, whether successful or not, is likely to be classified as a civil war by some historians if, and only if, organized armies fight conventional battles. Other historians state the criteria for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not).

civil war
n : a war between factions in the same country
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There is a difference between deaths caused by engagements with US forces and deaths caused by sectarian violence. Engagements against US forces fails to count as an impetus of civil war.
 
#62
#62
I also find it humorous that you immediately give credence to "your friend who works for the Prime Minister," however, you directly deny any of my reports from my friends that are PLs and Company Commanders of Infantry Units across the country. And, don't provide me with some BS line that your friend is somehow more knowledgeable of the situation than are actual commanders and leaders on the ground, fighting the fight.
 
#63
#63
I'm not all about fluffing up the wording like the media does. We have groups funded by our tax money run by Americans over there teaching these people how to be good democrats....lower case d of course. Unless you work for the other group of NDI.
 
#64
#64
Did I say those deaths were caused by US forces? Those are civilian deaths. Those were not deaths caused by US forces. So again, you need to make sure what you are referring to before making assumptions on other people's statements.

Have I directly denied any of your reports? I think the government's knowledge through the Prime Minister's office is far more than a few scattered people throughout the country. Unless your contacts are plugged into every body count in every morgue in every city, I don't give them credence to the full situation there. Tell me are your friends in every fight? Are they present at every kidnapping? Every carbombing? Every assassination? No, I didn't think so. So don't give me the BS that you somehow have a better scope on the situation than people in the government who deal with these numbers and deaths on a daily basis.
 
#65
#65
therealUT said:
Iraqi's killed by sectarian violence so far in the month of September. And, FYI, 1500 Iraqi's died in August as a result of violence...I think you will have a hard time finding between 200-300 throughout the rest of the country.


September 16
200 dead, Baghdad (since September 13)
18 dead, Kirkuk

September 11
14 dead, Baghdad
3 dead, Karbala

September 2
14 dead, Karbala (they were Asian Muslims making a pilgrammage, if you want to chalk that up to sectarian violence...)

August 31
43 dead, Baghdad

August 30
29 dead, Baghdad
12 dead, al Hilla
3 dead, Kirkuk
5 dead, Suwaira
5 dead, Buhriz

August 29
10 dead, Baghdad
10 dead, Diwaniyah

August 20
20 dead, Baghdad

August 17
11 dead, Baghdad

August 16
8 dead, Baghdad
5 dead, Mosul

August 15
63 dead, Baghdad
9 dead, Mosul

August 10
35 dead, Najaf

August 8
24 dead, Baghdad

August 7
16 dead, Baghdad
7 dead, Baquba

August 6
7 dead, Mosul

August 4
3 dead, Ubaydi
19 dead, Mosul

August 3
10 dead, Baghdad

August 1
37 dead, Baghdad
7 dead, Mahmoudiya
2 dead, Kirkuk

These are all the violent deaths reported by the world media during these two months, in which U.S. Army units were not involved.
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How did these numbers suddenlt drop in your post today?
 
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