Racism towards QBs.

#51
#51
Coach Grizz said:
I'm AA and I stand on my on own two feet I don't use the RC. But I'm gonna explain this the best way I can... I'm the only AA at my job so I gotta prove myself every day because there are skeptics out there about AA and the job place. I go above and beyond the call of duty because I want to debunk that stereotype. Being AA you can feel when somethings are racialy motivated it may not be said or seen but you can feel it
Just ask any AA that you are comfortable with on that level to discuss with they will tell you the same.

AA QB's have to prove themselves too, stereotypes like back years ago black players can't be QB's because they lack the leadership skills etc. Just like when our very own condredge holloway was being recruited by bear bryant, Bryant told him that Alabama was not ready for a black QB. Do I think there is rascim toward AA QB's? No. But I do feel it is more demanding on them to succeed. One of my favorite black QB's that stood above it all was Steve McNair.

IMO VY is a cry baby that needs his butt whooped. I hope I explained myself in a understandable manner
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I can't speak for anyone else but I am as white as can be and I have to prove myself everyday too. People are skeptical of me because i am from Tennessee and went to UT, no kidding.
 
#52
#52
gasguy98 said:
I can't speak for anyone else but I am as white as can be and I have to prove myself everyday too. People are skeptical of me because i am from Tennessee and went to UT, no kidding.
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Let me guess.... The hillbilly stereotype. That's bs man, i never did realize other people outside of the great state of Tn consider UT like a "cow school" or something. How dare them!!!! We all have obstacles to get through, hang in there my friend lol
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#55
#55
it's not race that makes McNabb suck. I'm convinced it somehow has to do with DC
 
#57
#57
David Berri: Did Race Play a Role in Donovan McNabb's Departure From Philadelphia?

Dave Berri is professor of economics. Economists use regression analysis to explain what goes on around us. It's a very sophisticated statistical tool and when specified properly it can see things that our eyes definitely cannot. Economists love using sports data because it is so reliable and the models are extremely accurate.

Our eyes lie to us all the time. We can't tell the difference between a .350 hitter and a .275 hitter. We can't tell the difference between a guy that shoots 40% and 50%. Stats are much more reliable than our eyes.

Regression analysis shows that black QB's do not receive equal treatment in playing time or in salary (controlling for productivity) and these economists are extremely confident in the results.

John Elway had 5 sub-par seasons in his career. McNabb has only had 2 when healthy (rookie and sophomore year). What do you think Denver fans would have done had they traded Elway at 32? Yet Eagles fans were fine with it.

Read the article. It's pretty good. Berri doesn't argue that NFL decision-makers and fans are racist, he just thinks that our hidden bias influences us when we don't even realize it.
 
#60
#60
nbakerld said:
David Berri: Did Race Play a Role in Donovan McNabb's Departure From Philadelphia?

Dave Berri is professor of economics. Economists use regression analysis to explain what goes on around us. It's a very sophisticated statistical tool and when specified properly it can see things that our eyes definitely cannot. Economists love using sports data because it is so reliable and the models are extremely accurate.

Our eyes lie to us all the time. We can't tell the difference between a .350 hitter and a .275 hitter. We can't tell the difference between a guy that shoots 40% and 50%. Stats are much more reliable than our eyes.

Regression analysis shows that black QB's do not receive equal treatment in playing time or in salary (controlling for productivity) and these economists are extremely confident in the results.

John Elway had 5 sub-par seasons in his career. McNabb has only had 2 when healthy (rookie and sophomore year). What do you think Denver fans would have done had they traded Elway at 32? Yet Eagles fans were fine with it.

Read the article. It's pretty good. Berri doesn't argue that NFL decision-makers and fans are racist, he just thinks that our hidden bias influences us when we don't even realize it.
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I'm sure his eyes saw this econonic boom coming. I'm sure those same eyes also detected the color of Mike Vick's skin. Not sayin' this guy's a clown but... :eek:lol:
 
#61
#61
nbakerld said:
David Berri: Did Race Play a Role in Donovan McNabb's Departure From Philadelphia?

Dave Berri is professor of economics. Economists use regression analysis to explain what goes on around us. It's a very sophisticated statistical tool and when specified properly it can see things that our eyes definitely cannot. Economists love using sports data because it is so reliable and the models are extremely accurate.

Our eyes lie to us all the time. We can't tell the difference between a .350 hitter and a .275 hitter. We can't tell the difference between a guy that shoots 40% and 50%. Stats are much more reliable than our eyes.

Regression analysis shows that black QB's do not receive equal treatment in playing time or in salary (controlling for productivity) and these economists are extremely confident in the results.

John Elway had 5 sub-par seasons in his career. McNabb has only had 2 when healthy (rookie and sophomore year). What do you think Denver fans would have done had they traded Elway at 32? Yet Eagles fans were fine with it.

Read the article. It's pretty good. Berri doesn't argue that NFL decision-makers and fans are racist, he just thinks that our hidden bias influences us when we don't even realize it.
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It's still garbage. They simply can't control for quality of team around a QB, motivation, or quality of opposition. Trying to control for any is circular so done, poorly, by proxy.

I'm a fan of regression analysis, but it simply can't evaluate QBs.
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#62
#62
BigPapaVol said:
It's still garbage. They simply can't control for quality of team around a QB, motivation, or quality of opposition. Trying to control for any is circular so done, poorly, by proxy.

I'm a fan of regression analysis, but it simply can't evaluate QBs.
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Motivation? Quality of opposition? All data sets come from the NFL and are controlled for time period, so it does control for quality of opponent.

If you know regression analysis you should know it can evaluate anything, and it can tell you the value of the measurement. Berri's wins produced statistic is a much more accurate measure of QB play than QB rating or any other stat we have.
 
#63
#63
MG1968 said:
please answer my question, you can't just call people racist and then do nothing to prove your point.
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Sure you can. Sharpton and Jackson do it all the time. Y T done it, Y T done it. Think Duke LaCrosse.
 
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#64
#64
nbakerld said:
Motivation? Quality of opposition? All data sets come from the NFL and are controlled for time period, so it does control for quality of opponent.

If you know regression analysis you should know it can evaluate anything, and it can tell you the value of the measurement. Berri's wins produced statistic is a much more accurate measure of QB play than QB rating or any other stat we have.
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No you can't. I know regression analysis well enough to understand that it's garbage for analysis of this nature. Better than a list of worthless measures is still uninformative.
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#65
#65
BUBear said:
I'm sure his eyes saw this econonic boom coming. I'm sure those same eyes also detected the color of Mike Vick's skin. Not sayin' this guy's a clown but... :eek:lol:
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He's a behavioral economist, so I'm sure he didn't predict the "bust" since he deals little with macroeconomics.
 
#66
#66
BigPapaVol said:
No you can't. I know regression analysis well enough to understand that it's garbage for analysis of this nature. Better than a list of worthless measures is still uninformative.
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Yet econometricians are as comfortable with sports applications as they are with anything else. You may think it's garbage, but these professional statisticians do not. No measurement is going to be perfect. You can't possibly control for every random event, but neither can our personal observations. Salary is not predictive of productivity which indicates sports decision-makers are inaccurate in their player evaluations. They are not nearly as accurate as these models.

You can nay say all you want, but you haven't even looked at the model. I still have no idea what you meant by "motivation" and how that would factor in.

You are right, a model can't control for personnel around a QB but neither can our eyes. For instance, Rivers is tearing it up, but is it because he has the best line in the NFL (according to Collinsworth)? How good would Reggie Wayne be without Peyton Manning? We have no idea. Our observations don't control for these things either.

The model goes like this:

QB score = yards - 3*plays - 30*turnovers

yards = passing yards + rushing yards - sack yards
plays = pass attempts + rush attempts + # of times sacked
turnovers = fumbles lost + interceptions

The formula is a lot more simple than passer rating, and a lot more predictive.
 
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#67
#67
I am not sure which formula he used to measure salary with the McNabb point. He uses a wins produced stat as well. If anybody cares I'll look to clarify.
 
#69
#69
I don't think there's any hope for us. It's either going to be real racism, or perceived racism, or paranoia racism, or basing things on how things used to be.

I mean not to pick on anyone, but Billy's completely ignorant assertion that some of the NFL owners are racist basically....just because some HAVE to be is another characteristic of how stupid we are as a society. That type of thinking is just as ignorant as those that truly do think someone's color determines what type of person they are.

The term racism has been cheapened so much that it has turned people like me into cynics.
 
#70
#70
VolsSportsFan said:
I don't think there's any hope for us. It's either going to be real racism, or perceived racism, or paranoia racism, or basing things on how things used to be.

I mean not to pick on anyone, but Billy's completely ignorant assertion that some of the NFL owners are racist basically....just because some HAVE to be is another characteristic of how stupid we are as a society. That type of thinking is just as ignorant as those that truly do think someone's color determines what type of person they are.

The term racism has been cheapened so much that it has turned people like me into cynics.
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Racist

/obligatory
 
#71
#71
WesternKyVol said:
Vince Young, Donovan McNabb and Jason Campbell have all had issues with their roles as starting NFL quarterbacks this season, and perhaps race is a factor - ESPN

Maybe I'm racially insensitive but I think this is the biggest bunch of nonsense ever. If anything these qbs get the publicity and fame that they get because they ARE black.
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I'm sure race is a big factor in Vince Young's problems with his starting role. I mean, look how well Fisher got along with a white guy like Steve McNair. It's obviously all about race.
 
#73
#73
You mean they actually let blacks play qb now.....oh the horror! Does this mean my kids (white) can apply for money from the United Negro College Fund now to even the scales? Joking of course.

But seriously, the fact that the United Negro College Fund exists and not one single black person I know thinks that is reverse racism tells me all I need to know about the general perception of racism.

I know my little diatribe had nothing to do with the actual discussion. My point is that there is absolutely no basis for anyone screaming racism against blacks when there are benefits that my kids are not eligible for because they are white.

One more bullshiz benefit: Why must a team owner interview a black coach for the hc position? I am certainly not against it but as a hypothetical team owner, if I am in need of a new coach and all the coaches I currently think are a fit for my club are white, why must I be forced to waste my time and resources interviewing a coach I don't want? Is there a rule that you MUST interview a white coach? Didn't think so.
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#74
#74
Doug Williams and Chris Collinsworth ruined football. Every since them blacks think they can play QB and whites think they can play WR. What has the world come to?
 
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