Radio silence on Kumar Rocker

#101
#101
Volprofch05 said:
If everything is accurate at the Vandy stats page below, then here are his outings with the highest pitch counts:
...
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I will opine pitch counts are not equal.
Some pitches put more stress on 'the arm' than other pitches.
Simple illustration is the longevity of the arm of Phil Niekro ... his pitch (while incredibly hard to master) was very easy on the arm.
Depending on who you listen to ... screwball, splitfinger fastball, or slider are the most stressful on 'the arm'. But do not be too quick to argue for or against the curveball. See last article listed.
Note: There is a reason that coaches call the pitches vs the pitcher or the catcher. So, coaches do 'own' responsibility for the pitchers arm - when the bench is calling the pitches.
Personally, I want excellent location AND movement on the fastball. Those are career building traits. (...this from a former catcher... so take it with a grain of salt.)
Research, if you are interested: [I focused on biomechanics, kinematics, and kinetics]
Advanced Biomechanics of the Pitching Delivery (Undated, but later than 2009) There is a discussion on 'Inverted W' and the increased risk of arm injury and reduced velocity caused by this mechanic.
Major League Baseball pitch velocity and pitch type associated with risk of ulnar collateral ligament injury - PubMed (2017 MLB): Who is likely at risk for ucl injury? (Unfortunately they did not separate fastballs into groups... perhaps this was an oversight. But I am a skeptic!)
Fastballs vs. Offspeed Pitches - Comparative and Relative Elbow Stress (2017) Great overall discussion
 
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#102
#102
As an ex-pitcher who had a pro career that was over in a blink of an eye😂 I can tell you that throwing 100 pitches for some guys is much different than 100 pitches for others. Guys like Leiter can do it with ease because his mechanics, quite honestly, are almost flawless. He uses every ounce of his lower and upper half to generate torque, allowing his arm to work with less stress. My guess is that he even has less arm soreness after his starts, but more soreness in his hips and back. Rocker’s mechanics are not the same. He uses his arm and his size to generate his torque and velocity more than his lower half. I noticed that earlier this season. So, there is more stress on his arm. Doesn’t mean he will definitely get injured, but he is more apt to do so (this coming from a guy that personally knows about TJ all too well 😁)
 
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#103
#103
I agree with you on various pitches and that all are not affected the same. The point I made was pitch count is a lot more comparative than innings pitched. Most of the guys named averaged 14-15 per inning whereas others average 20-22 pitches per inning which is a lot more pitches per game. The ones who can get that average down to 9-11 are the ones who have long careers and less soreness, as a whole, each being different. It also depends on how much you throw throughout the year along with velocity. I think kids today do not throw enough but most pitch too much. Like any other part of the body it is important to build up the arm and keep it conditioned.
 
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#104
#104
preacherman20 said:
I agree with you on various pitches and that all are not affected the same. The point I made was pitch count is a lot more comparative than innings pitched. Most of the guys named averaged 14-15 per inning whereas others average 20-22 pitches per inning which is a lot more pitches per game. The ones who can get that average down to 9-11 are the ones who have long careers and less soreness, as a whole, each being different. It also depends on how much you throw throughout the year along with velocity. I think kids today do not throw enough but most pitch too much. Like any other part of the body it is important to build up the arm and keep it conditioned.
Click to expand...

For Cheese, this is what makes Q worth his weight in gold!
 
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#106
#106
6-4-3 said:
As an ex-pitcher who had a pro career that was over in a blink of an eye😂 I can tell you that throwing 100 pitches for some guys is much different than 100 pitches for others. Guys like Leiter can do it with ease because his mechanics, quite honestly, are almost flawless. He uses every ounce of his lower and upper half to generate torque, allowing his arm to work with less stress. My guess is that he even has less arm soreness after his starts, but more soreness in his hips and back. Rocker’s mechanics are not the same. He uses his arm and his size to generate his torque and velocity more than his lower half. I noticed that earlier this season. So, there is more stress on his arm. Doesn’t mean he will definitely get injured, but he is more apt to do so (this coming from a guy that personally knows about TJ all too well 😁)
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Makes sense that Leiter would have pristine mechanics with his dad having pitched in MLB, for almost 20 years no less. Also, noticed that whenever Leiter was removed from games he'd immediately be encased in an armor of ice that looked a bit excessive at the time, but perhaps less so now.
 
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#107
#107
6-4-3 said:
As an ex-pitcher who had a pro career that was over in a blink of an eye😂 I can tell you that throwing 100 pitches for some guys is much different than 100 pitches for others. Guys like Leiter can do it with ease because his mechanics, quite honestly, are almost flawless. He uses every ounce of his lower and upper half to generate torque, allowing his arm to work with less stress. My guess is that he even has less arm soreness after his starts, but more soreness in his hips and back. Rocker’s mechanics are not the same. He uses his arm and his size to generate his torque and velocity more than his lower half. I noticed that earlier this season. So, there is more stress on his arm. Doesn’t mean he will definitely get injured, but he is more apt to do so (this coming from a guy that personally knows about TJ all too well 😁)
Click to expand...
I had previously stated that you take Nolan Ryans mechanic and shear power in his lower half.The only time he had arm issue was early with Mets. The guy is amazing and what he did on off days and taking care of himself. He is a great guy to talk with on the game. They say even at his age now is in the 80s. Players need to realize it is not just arms and stature.
 
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#108
#108
Volprofch05 said:
Makes sense that Leiter would have pristine mechanics with his dad having pitched in MLB, for almost 20 years no less. Also, noticed that whenever Leiter was removed from games he'd immediately be encased in an armor of ice that looked a bit excessive at the time, but perhaps less so now.
Click to expand...
I noticed the ice also. That was a little surprising to me when I saw it. The majority of team doctors, sports physicians and scientists now believe ice is not a good idea after pitching. That’s why you rarely see it. When I was playing, we all did it. Now, you hardly ever see it. Science evolves over time, that’s for sure. If you study it, it makes perfect since not to use it. There are good reasons why.

Maybe his dad used ice all the time and it worked for him…and now it is instilled in his son as well. Who knows.
 
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#109
#109
6-4-3 said:
I noticed the ice also. That was a little surprising to me when I saw it. The majority of team doctors, sports physicians and scientists now believe ice is not a good idea after pitching. That’s why you rarely see it. When I was playing, we all did it. Now, you hardly ever see it. Science evolves over time, that’s for sure. If you study it, it makes perfect since not to use it. There are good reasons why.

Maybe his dad used ice all the time and it worked for him…and now it is instilled in his son as well. Who knows.
Click to expand...

It probably depends on what the trainers are solving for. If the pitcher is fine and healthy, feels good maybe ice is not good. While if there's inflammation or some sort of tenderness maybe ice is applied? I'm just thinking out loud here.
 
#110
#110
6-4-3 said:
I noticed the ice also. That was a little surprising to me when I saw it. The majority of team doctors, sports physicians and scientists now believe ice is not a good idea after pitching. That’s why you rarely see it. When I was playing, we all did it. Now, you hardly ever see it. Science evolves over time, that’s for sure. If you study it, it makes perfect since not to use it. There are good reasons why.

Maybe his dad used ice all the time and it worked for him…and now it is instilled in his son as well. Who knows.
Click to expand...

So many arguments both pro and anti Icing. Look at someone like Kershaw who puts mountains of ice on as soon as he comes out... Are you going to tell him hes wrong? If it the pitcher thinks it helps.. it helps.
 
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#111
#111
I was told when my sons were young and trying to figure out whether to ice or not. If you start you should continue as long as they play. Your body gets used to it and you continue because that is how their body will respond.
Woody, baseball trainer, does not ice at all unless a player came in icing. None of my sons have ever iced. Had a travel coach one time with middle son who was adamant he had to ice and I told him never have never will.
 
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#112
#112
6-4-3 said:
As an ex-pitcher who had a pro career that was over in a blink of an eye😂 I can tell you that throwing 100 pitches for some guys is much different than 100 pitches for others. Guys like Leiter can do it with ease because his mechanics, quite honestly, are almost flawless. He uses every ounce of his lower and upper half to generate torque, allowing his arm to work with less stress. My guess is that he even has less arm soreness after his starts, but more soreness in his hips and back. Rocker’s mechanics are not the same. He uses his arm and his size to generate his torque and velocity more than his lower half. I noticed that earlier this season. So, there is more stress on his arm. Doesn’t mean he will definitely get injured, but he is more apt to do so (this coming from a guy that personally knows about TJ all too well 😁)
Click to expand...

It's why Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings once. That same year, I believe he pitched at least 8 innings in 31 games. Pitched into extra innings 4 times. He understood that his power came from his legs, and he also used his grips and arm angles to throw different pitches. He didn't twist his arm and didn't torque it as much. He was my idol when I pitched growing up.
 
#113
#113
VolGee4 said:
It's why Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings once. That same year, I believe he pitched at least 8 innings in 31 games. Pitched into extra innings 4 times. He understood that his power came from his legs, and he also used his grips and arm angles to throw different pitches. He didn't twist his arm and didn't torque it as much. He was my idol when I pitched growing up.
Click to expand...
Factcheck: False





(Factchecker: Robin Ventura) 😁
hi-res-83a496e1d835a339615a1bdcc0c4368f_crop_exact.jpg
 
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#116
#116
VolGee4 said:
It's why Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings once. That same year, I believe he pitched at least 8 innings in 31 games. Pitched into extra innings 4 times. He understood that his power came from his legs, and he also used his grips and arm angles to throw different pitches. He didn't twist his arm and didn't torque it as much. He was my idol when I pitched growing up.
Click to expand...

Jim Palmer pitched 211 complete games in a 19 year career (including 53 cg shutouts). in 75, he threw 25 complete games (10 shutouts) in 38 starts. He threw 300 or more innings 5 times in his career.
 
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#117
#117
youcancallmeAl said:
Jim Palmer pitched 211 complete games in a 19 year career (including 53 cg shutouts). in 75, he threw 25 complete games (10 shutouts) in 38 starts. He threw 300 or more innings 5 times in his career.
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An absolute tank. I'm young (in my 20s) but truly enjoy the old-school pitchers much more than the velo-guys we have today. Pitchers > throwers.
 
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#118
#118
youcancallmeAl said:
Jim Palmer pitched 211 complete games in a 19 year career (including 53 cg shutouts). in 75, he threw 25 complete games (10 shutouts) in 38 starts. He threw 300 or more innings 5 times in his career.
Click to expand...

Gibson threw 255 complete games, 28 twice in consecutive seasons. Of course, he would just tell the coaches no if he didn’t want to come out of the game.
 
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#119
#119
NorCalVol67 said:
Gibson threw 255 complete games, 28 twice in consecutive seasons. Of course, he would just tell the coaches no if he didn’t want to come out of the game.
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And who would argue with him about it? A mere manager? He was the nastiest mfer I've ever seen on a pitcher's mound. That glare was shivering. He was awesome.
 
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#121
#121
Just get it over with and have pre-emptive Tommy John surgery.
It's inevitable anyway. Might as well use the forced year off and get it over with
 
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#122
#122
By the way, the Nolan Ryan worship has to stop.
He was injured ALL the time!
Never led his team to squat.
He was a "my stats" guy just like the also overrated Ernie Banks.
 
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