Ranking Coaches

#26
#26
I disagree completely with that statement. By every measure possible, the SEC has never been better than it has been the last three years.

Every measure possible? I just listed THE single most important measure, which suggests the SEC has never been weaker for the better part of a decade now.

In the 90's, even Geno would concede the SEC was clearly the premier conference (and let you know he was tired of hearing it). If you think that is still the case, you are delusional....
 
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#27
#27
Vandy's current coach has literally never coached a college game.

Yes, I was just wondering the feeling of others.... I know before Tyler Summitt ever coached a college game many here were clamoring for him to assume the mantle his mom had.... and same thing now for Becky Hammon.... I read that she would a be a great college coach whenever speculation gets started... when her present asst coaching gig is the first coaching experience she has had.....

I think the Vandy staff will give us good competition
 
#28
#28
Every measure possible? I just listed THE single most important measure, which suggests the SEC has never been weaker for the better part of a decade now.

In the 90's, even Geno would concede the SEC was clearly the premier conference (and let you know he was tired of hearing it). If you think that is still the case, you are delusional....

What conference would you consider the "premier conference" then? The SEC has consistently had more ranked teams and NCAA Tournament selections than any other conference over the last five years. A record nine SEC teams, the most from any conference ever, made the tourney this year.

The ACC is the only conference with an argument based on top-to-bottom success and NCAA bids and the only national championship they have won in the last 22 years came by a school that isn't even in their conference anymore.

UConn dominating doesn't make the American the "premier conference," neither does Notre Dame consistently being in the Final Four give the nod to the ACC.

Despite her success, you don't like Holly, that's clear. You're entitled to that opinion. But saying Jim Foster was a better coach in the early 1990s when 10 programs in the country were capable of making a Final Four than Holly is today is silly.
 
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#29
#29
The SEC has consistently had more ranked teams and NCAA Tournament selections than any other conference over the last five years. A record nine SEC teams, the most from any conference ever, made the tourney this year.

There are more bids because there are more teams in the SEC now, and the league still sucks when it counts! The top team (a #1 seed), didn't even make it to the regional final. The second place team got blown out by 18 on the first weekend. The third place team lost by 55! You would think adding more teams, including a program that has won a championship more recently than Tennessee, would actually IMPROVE March performance. Instead the league as a whole has never been worse.

The ACC is the only conference with an argument based on top-to-bottom success and NCAA bids and the only national championship they have won in the last 22 years came by a school that isn't even in their conference anymore.

Invalid argument, as 16 of the last 22 championships have been won by 2 teams. By that logic every conference sucks besides the SEC and Big East/American.

UConn dominating doesn't make the American the "premier conference," neither does Notre Dame consistently being in the Final Four give the nod to the ACC.

Even UConn fans will tell you their conference is a joke. Notre Dame consistently making the Final Four, and Syracuse making it this year, absolutely gives their conference a strong argument (as much as Holly fans would like to ignore insignificant accomplishments like the Final Four).

Despite her success, you don't like Holly, that's clear. You're entitled to that opinion.

It's not that I don't like her, but she isn't a good coach. And because of your position, you can't/won't voice an objective opinion on her.

But saying Jim Foster was a better coach in the early 1990s when 10 programs in the country were capable of making a Final Four than Holly is today is silly.

Then I guess 6 of those programs were in the SEC, since that's how many made a Final Four in the 90's. But tell me more about how much easier it was to win in the league back then. As far as how much harder it is now to make the Final Four, Syracuse and Washington pretty much shot that weak argument down.

I never said Foster was better, but I think the two are very comparable. His first few years at Vandy were very similar to Holly's first few years here. And the fact is the two have split their last two games against each other, both dogfights with Foster having far less talent. If Foster was coaching the Lady Vols, they still would have made it to the Elite Eight but I doubt they would have gone farther....
 
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#30
#30
2016 conference rankings

Massey -
PAC12
SEC
Big12
ACC
Big10

Sagarin -
PAC12
SEC
Big12
Big10
ACC
 
#31
#31
What conference would you consider the "premier conference" then? The SEC has consistently had more ranked teams and NCAA Tournament selections than any other conference over the last five years. A record nine SEC teams, the most from any conference ever, made the tourney this year.

The ACC is the only conference with an argument based on top-to-bottom success and NCAA bids and the only national championship they have won in the last 22 years came by a school that isn't even in their conference anymore.

UConn dominating doesn't make the American the "premier conference," neither does Notre Dame consistently being in the Final Four give the nod to the ACC.

Despite her success, you don't like Holly, that's clear. You're entitled to that opinion. But saying Jim Foster was a better coach in the early 1990s when 10 programs in the country were capable of making a Final Four than Holly is today is silly.

HW doesn't have the personality/leadership/bb chops to be a top head coach and run a program like ours--she doesn't. You've got to EXUDE confidence and strength and intelligence to be a top coach: that's not HW. She tries hard but has always been over her head in a position she would have never gotten except for being PS's best friend. She's had three good chances to win an elite 8 game and go to the Final Four--and we got our butts kicked in one of them and embarrassed ourselves in the other two--adding up to three blown chances to get back on the national stage, which we desperately need to do to reestablish some cachet and boost our recruiting. We were awful last year. We have a gold-plated program and we should have an excellent staff. If we did, every game wouldn't be a struggle.
 
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#32
#32
Looking back at the last 5 years of conference rankings with Massey:

2012.....2013.....2014.....2015....2016

B12........B12......ACC.....B1G.....PAC12
B. East....B1G.....SEC......ACC.....SEC
SEC.......SEC......B12......SEC.....B12
PAC12...B. East...AAC.....B12......ACC
ACC.......ACC.....PAC12...PAC12...B1G
B1G......PAC12....B12......AAC.....AAC

2013 was the last year of the Big East. In 2014, Notre Dame, Syracuse and Pittsburgh transferred to the ACC.

2014 saw Louisville transfer to the ACC and Maryland and Rutgers transfer to the B1G.

After the dissolution of the Big East, I no longer considered them a major conference and no longer reported their rank/rating. I replaced them with the AAC, a mid-major in all ways except UConn. The AAC was actually the 4th rated conference in 2014, but after Louisville and Rutgers departed, their conference rating plummeted despite the presence of UConn.

Mean conference rank the past 5 years:
2.4 B12
2.6 SEC
3.0 Big East
3.4 ACC
4.0 B1G
4.2 PAC12
5.3 AAC

Mean conference rating the past 5 years, as ranks are far less precise:
1.99 B12
1.95 Big East
1.93 SEC
1.90 ACC
1.89 PAC12
1.85 B1G
1.73 AAC

Note that the SEC finishes 3rd in average rating and was not rated as the toughest conference in any of the past 5 years. The B12 is the toughest conference in WCBB the past 5 years, as they were rated first in 2012 and 2013, and had the highest rating and rank during this period.
 
#33
#33
He won 3 SEC tournaments, but never a regular season title. As I've noted when talking about Holly's record, the SEC recognizes the regular season winner as the SEC Champion.

Foster's Vanderbilt team did go to the Final Four in 1993 in a 48-team tournament.
Let's see how she does with her players. Oh wait, she can't recruit any players.
 
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#34
#34
There are more bids because there are more teams in the SEC now, and the league still sucks when it counts! The top team (a #1 seed), didn't even make it to the regional final. The second place team got blown out by 18 on the first weekend. The third place team lost by 55! You would think adding more teams, including a program that has won a championship more recently than Tennessee, would actually IMPROVE March performance. Instead the league as a whole has never been worse.

The SEC has been overrated for several years now and that is shown in the tournament where our teams consistently underperform. Our champion even has trouble making a Final Four. We always get more teams in the tournament than is warranted and they are overranked.

I expect the SEC will improve with the influx of coaching talent. But it has been down for years now. A lot of this is due to the poor officiating and poor coaching in the league. The style of basketball that is played in the SEC is inferior and it is only the great support and great athletes which have kept us competitive. We haven't been the worst conference, but we certainly have not been the best one either.
 
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#35
#35
The SEC has been overrated for several years now and that is shown in the tournament where our teams consistently underperform. Our champion even has trouble making a Final Four. We always get more teams in the tournament than is warranted and they are overranked.

Which greatly contributed to Holly's "success" in her first three seasons.... until this season when she managed to lead the team to their worst SEC record in program history....
 
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#36
#36
Which greatly contributed to Holly's "success" in her first three seasons.... until this season when she managed to lead the team to their worst SEC record in program history....

I do not see The LV's getting better under Holly. I would like to see things change but I do not expect hell to freeze over in the near future.:furious3::furious3:
 
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#37
#37
I do not see The LV's getting better under Holly. I would like to see things change but I do not expect hell to freeze over in the near future.:furious3::furious3:

#LVsGotBigsNow

Despite Holly being in the way Tennessee will be a good team next season. Shaquilla Nunn is an experience player that can score and rebound. She should fit right into Bashaara Graves spot at the 4. I'm thinking Nunn will be a better power forward than Graves. Working along side Mercedes and competing against one another in practice will only make the team and them much better.

Te'a Cooper and Diamond Deshields I believe will live up to their hype and create some fun fast paced basketball for us fans.

Last but not least with Andraya Carter not playing (fingers crossed) Only because she's given so much but no loner is a viable player so she might as well move on. Thanks Draya! Her position frees up Alexa and MeMe to get a lot more playing time.

All should go well with pound the ball inside and defense. That's Holly's calling card. IF the LVs can just do that I can see us getting to the Final Four.

We Got Bigs starting and coming off the bench. That's all Holly knows. The old school way. Defense and rebounding. We finally have those corn fed chicks back in the fold. Good thing for Holly as she can continue to do what she has been doing (Your guess is as good as mine of what that is). We Got Bigs! That's going to be Holly's saving grace. Just wait and see.

All the players have to do is keep it simple. Do as Holly says, pound the ball inside. Get to the free throw line. Play defense. And above all else play hard.

That's all Holly knows so might as well just go with game plan.
 
#38
#38
What conference would you consider the "premier conference" then? The SEC has consistently had more ranked teams and NCAA Tournament selections than any other conference over the last five years. A record nine SEC teams, the most from any conference ever, made the tourney this year.

The ACC is the only conference with an argument based on top-to-bottom success and NCAA bids and the only national championship they have won in the last 22 years came by a school that isn't even in their conference anymore.

UConn dominating doesn't make the American the "premier conference," neither does Notre Dame consistently being in the Final Four give the nod to the ACC.

Despite her success, you don't like Holly, that's clear. You're entitled to that opinion. But saying Jim Foster was a better coach in the early 1990s when 10 programs in the country were capable of making a Final Four than Holly is today is silly.

Heres some interesting data points dating back to 2009 with teams placed in the conferences where they are currently aligned.

Total Bids Since 2009

SEC - 60
ACC - 55
Big Ten - 54
Big 12 - 51
Pac-12 - 30
Big East - 27
American - 14

I was surprised quite frankly how close the ACC and Big Ten are to the SEC in total bids. Additionally, you have to give it up to the Big 12 because as a percentage of total teams in the conference they are doing better than anyone.

Conversion Rates - Sweet 16 - How many of those bids did you turn into Sweet 16 appearances

Pac-12 - 14, 46.7%
ACC - 25, 45.5%
SEC - 27, 45%
Big 12 - 19, 37.1%
Big Ten - 15, 27.8%


ACC and SEC are essentially tied here.

Conversion Rates - Final Four

Pac-12 - 8, 26.7%
ACC - 8, 14.5%
Big 12 - 4, 7.8%
Big Ten - 2, 3.7%
SEC - 2, 3.3%

You can make the argument its the SEC due to number of bids and relative success at getting teams to the Sweet 16, but such utter lack of Final Four breakthroughs make that hard to argue. Pac-12 has an argument potentially--they have been most successful with their teams advancing in the tournament but they aren't especially deep. ACC has probably has the best argument because they can make the same arguments as Pac-12 but with more depth.
 
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#39
#39
#LVsGotBigsNow

Despite Holly being in the way Tennessee will be a good team next season. Shaquilla Nunn is an experience player that can score and rebound. She should fit right into Bashaara Graves spot at the 4. I'm thinking Nunn will be a better power forward than Graves. Working along side Mercedes and competing against one another in practice will only make the team and them much better.

Te'a Cooper and Diamond Deshields I believe will live up to their hype and create some fun fast paced basketball for us fans.

Last but not least with Andraya Carter not playing (fingers crossed) Only because she's given so much but no loner is a viable player so she might as well move on. Thanks Draya! Her position frees up Alexa and MeMe to get a lot more playing time.

All should go well with pound the ball inside and defense. That's Holly's calling card. IF the LVs can just do that I can see us getting to the Final Four.

We Got Bigs starting and coming off the bench. That's all Holly knows. The old school way. Defense and rebounding. We finally have those corn fed chicks back in the fold. Good thing for Holly as she can continue to do what she has been doing (Your guess is as good as mine of what that is). We Got Bigs! That's going to be Holly's saving grace. Just wait and see.

All the players have to do is keep it simple. Do as Holly says, pound the ball inside. Get to the free throw line. Play defense. And above all else play hard.

That's all Holly knows so might as well just go with game plan.

We will go as far as Holly takes us next year.... She is the one calling all the shots.... so I do not see how we can be good, without her being there every step of the way.... In WCBB the position of HC is paramount
 
#40
#40
I'm still trying to figure out where the transfers are, that were supposed to be leaving after this season because of Holly. With the amount of transfer happening, the players must see something in Holly to not transfer. Even after a record breaking season for losses.
 
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#41
#41
I'm still trying to figure out where the transfers are, that were supposed to be leaving after this season because of Holly. With the amount of transfer happening, the players must see something in Holly to not transfer. Even after a record breaking season for losses.

look at it from their perspective....There may be better head coaches out there. But if you go, you leave arguably one of the top 5 talent-team-combinations in the country. There are still 6 McD AA's on this team. How many teams will give them those odds?.... What Would You Do?
 
#42
#42
look at it from their perspective....There may be better head coaches out there. But if you go, you leave arguably one of the top 5 talent-team-combinations in the country. There are still 6 McD AA's on this team. How many teams will give them those odds?.... What Would You Do?

Stay, but not because the team as a whole has top 5 talent. When transfers decide to leave, I just don't think that would factor into their decision.
Normally when a player transfers, it's more of a personal issue with the coaches or teammates or they're just not happy where they are.
 
#43
#43
I'm still trying to figure out where the transfers are, that were supposed to be leaving after this season because of Holly. With the amount of transfer happening, the players must see something in Holly to not transfer. Even after a record breaking season for losses.

Rumor was some were transferring because of Elzy and that is the reason Holly didn't want her back. I don't think there was any problem with Holly one thing for certain is that she is not hard to get along with.
 
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#44
#44
We will go as far as Holly takes us next year.... She is the one calling all the shots.... so I do not see how we can be good, without her being there every step of the way.... In WCBB the position of HC is paramount

I agree. I'm just trying to look on the bright side and stay positive. She's not a good coach and after losses when she speaks in interviews it is glaring.
 
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#45
#45
Stay, but not because the team as a whole has top 5 talent. When transfers decide to leave, I just don't think that would factor into their decision.
Normally when a player transfers, it's more of a personal issue with the coaches or teammates or they're just not happy where they are.

OR, they're looking for something more than just the program. Take DD, she has succeeded at will in AAU and HS. That was an area easy to navigate to the best situation because she was so visible and coaches could be chosen and vacated without penalty... College is different. When its over, life begins.
... You can't spend all your time navigating and looking. At some point you have to be the best no matter what your circumstance.
 
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#47
#47
I was in a very interesting conversation yesterday. We were ranking the D1 Women's Basketball Head Coaches only in the state of TN. I was entertained and surprised where CHW was placed in the discussion. No one ranked her higher than 4th. What say you guys?

A coach like Pat Summitt comes around like a 500 year flood.
 

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