Reality check time

[Volfaninfl2]

I am always very hesitant to visit this site after a loss because the drive-by-posters and negavols come out in droves. And many others get caught in the wild mood swings between jubilation in believing that the LVs have "turned the corner" to greatness (We WILL BE SOUTH CAROLINA!) and and we should bench all the players and maybe rethink our coaching situation (post-loss). [Disclaimer: I am stating the extreme ends of these poles for illustrative effect].

Here is what I believe is a realistic assessment:

The LVs are ranked 23rd (for now) and that is pretty good assessment of their national standing. They are a slightly above average team and when they play the #1 or #3, they expectedly get dominated after some extended of period of putting up a “good fight.”

Why are the LVs a middling team?

Inexperienced players in crucial roles.

Freshman transition to the college game at different rates. We saw that USC freshman are ahead of the curve on Key and Jordan.
In comparison to Key, Boston is more “D1 ready” in terms of functional strength and post moves. Tamari is a GREAT weak-side defender and shot blocker. If the LVs had a better upper class post player so that TK could be role player with defensive responsibilities, we would all be singing her praises. Right now, however, Key is being asked to do more than she is prepared for. I see some signs of development and if she closes the gap by March…..

Jordan is struggling for different reasons. I think she is playing a little rushed. Last night, she had several plays where she made a great move to get an easy lay-up but could not finish or, once again forced passes when easier options were available.

While critics are saying “bench her” because of TO, well, one of the toughest transitions that freshman have to make is playing defense with intensity and Jordan is way ahead of the curve on that dimension—like Key her defensive game is ahead of the offensive game. When Jordan goes out, the defensive quality as a unit drops.

Another reason, you can’t drop Jordan is next;

A shortage of top-level D1 caliber players.

I know a controversial statement and I am not disparaging the human worth of any LV but sports exposes shortcomings with brutal honesty.

After the LSU and Bama games, there were posters basically saying “take that you Lou doubters, she is the glue, She IS this and she is that.”

Yes, Lou can hold her own against teams that are unranked and fighting for an NCAA tourney bid (i.e., teams that are just a notch below the LVs at this stage). But, she lacks the necessary physical tools to hold up well against USC, Uconn, Stanford, Oregon and Baylor level opponents. On those teams, she would NOT be a starter and, at the very best, would be a role player (and in all honesty she probably does not make those rosters). I like her as a player: great hustle, smart and lots of other positive attributes but she is the caliber of player you would expect to find playing for a mid-level, mid-major conference team, not one with serious Final four aspirations

Rae has more overall ability but her game, at its current state, would not see much floor time for these top 10 clubs either.

Harris, KK, McCoy same story as Lou.

The LVs have one player who would start on just about any team – Rennia Davis. They have one player for whom coaches would accept the growing pains to build for the future – Jordan and one player who would be an impact on any top team (though maybe not a starter) – Zaay Green. And one, who would be a solid role player as a back-up PG Jazz.

So, missing Zaay due to injury, the LVs line-up with 3 players who more or less have the talent/skill set to play in some role at a top-tier D1 level and a group of roles players with varying degrees of upside.

For this group to compete, they have to play outstanding, cohesive defense. Against elite teams, they currently seem to be able to hold that level for about ½ game. Turnovers make that task even more challenging.

But the LVs are an offensively challenged team. To be competitive in the top ten, the LVs need 20+ points from Rennia, plus good production from Jordan and a spark from Rae and Jazz (as the team stands right now). Lou is not consistent with her shot and our posts struggle against top teams to score. Zaay is not available to provide that 3 option which would unbalance defenses. As good as Rennia is, quality teams can take her out of the offense, given the lack of scoring threats around here. Per last night’s game, her stat line looked pretty good at the end but, when the game was really being decided in the first half, USC shut Rennia down.

I don’t mean this comment as diatribe against the team. I predict they will look MUCH different in March than they do now. I think Jordan will settle down. [With this collection of players, Kellie simply cannot bench Jordan. She has to give her experience and hope that the kinks can be worked out by March.]

Rae will get a little more consistent and we have to believe that Jazz’s offensive game will continue to gain momentum and that we will see some improvement in the other LVs.

Currently, the critics are acting like the LVs are somehow underachieving and pointing fingers at who is to blame. But when you break it down player-by-player, the LVs actually will need to overachieve to make the Sweet 16. And Kellie and her staff are in a tough position because anything less than a Sweet 16 finish will be seen as a disappointment. That is the Catch-22 she has to resolve through “the process." I am betting she does.

Really wish you had waited till after the season to express your realistic assessment. Saying we have inexperienced players in crucial roles is true concerning Horston and Key, but why did you feel that now, in a public forum, in front of this tough stretch of games, and end of season tournaments, was the time to discourage half the players on our team by telling them they are not D-1 caliber players?

Did Missouri State have D-1 caliber players when they made it to the Sweet 16 last year? Have you looked around? There are very few teams with star players at every position, but there are upsets of highly ranked teams by unranked teams, every week.

Serious Final Four aspirations? Us this year? Who thought that? From last year’s team, we lost scorers Westbrook, C. Green, and Collins, and Zaay Green to injury this year. We basically have One scorer this year we can depend on, and she really needs to score around thirty points a game, AND YET, this year’s Team, so far, has beaten Missouri, Georgia, Alabama, Notre Dame, and Vanderbilt, all teams who beat our team last year.

We could have collapsed this year, but we didn’t. Instead, we got a great Coaching staff who turned our players, most of whom had never played together before, into a fighting Team! I applaud every single one of our Players and Coaches, who have excelled and overachieved all season. Under difficult circumstances, they have already exceeded the expectations of anyone who has been following the Lady Vols, and given us all hope for the future, and yes, higher expectations. Keep fighting Lady Vols!

 

[madtownvol]

Really wish you had waited till after the season to express your realistic assessment. Saying we have inexperienced players in crucial roles is true concerning Horston and Key, but why did you feel that now, in a public forum, in front of this tough stretch of games, and end of season tournaments, was the time to discourage half the players on our team by telling them they are not D-1 caliber players?

Did Missouri State have D-1 caliber players when they made it to the Sweet 16 last year? Have you looked around? There are very few teams with star players at every position, but there are upsets of highly ranked teams by unranked teams, every week.

Serious Final Four aspirations? Us this year? Who thought that? From last year’s team, we lost scorers Westbrook, C. Green, and Collins, and Zaay Green to injury this year. We basically have One scorer this year we can depend on, and she really needs to score around thirty points a game, AND YET, this year’s Team, so far, has beaten Missouri, Georgia, Alabama, Notre Dame, and Vanderbilt, all teams who beat our team last year.

We could have collapsed this year, but we didn’t. Instead, we got a great Coaching staff who turned our players, most of whom had never played together before, into a fighting Team! I applaud every single one of our Players and Coaches, who have excelled and overachieved all season. Under difficult circumstances, they have already exceeded the expectations of anyone who has been following the Lady Vols, and given us all hope for the future, and yes, higher expectations. Keep fighting Lady Vols!

That's for the chance to clarify my earlier post.

First, I wrote "top-level D1" caliber players. Do you think Lou or Kam, McCoy, KK, Saunders, or Rennie are envisioning themselves as being All-Americans or all conference players this season?

You don't think they know their roles, limitations and who shoulders the responsibility for carrying the offensive load (Davis, Jordan, Jazz)?

Second, to also clarify the LVs do not have serious final four aspiration this year because they have to play the players they have due to injuries and transfers. That was my point.

You think these players have not noticed "a gap" when they matched up against Uconn, USC or Stanford.

Third, I am pretty confident that Key, and Horston know that they are freshman who lack experience. So, my post should not come as a shock to them. I also said that I expect they are going to bet a lot better by June and, particularly in regard to uber talented Jordan, everyone just needs to accept her growing pains.

Nothing in my post in any way disparaged the coaching staff. I was responding to all the negativity that follows after a loss like this which only makes sense if posters are assuming that the LVs should be battling right in there with the #1 team in the country;

I also said that this team, in order to compete, needs to play cohesive defense for a full game but right now, they can't manage that (but by March....).

Team work and effort can overcome talent disparities but you have to know what your strengths and weaknesses are and not hide in a self-esteem protection bubble. And there is no way that Kellie is letting that happen.

Finally, what? you said the team has "over achieved"?

Why make that statement, mid season in a public forum, with a tough stretch of games coming up? Why won't that discourage the players?

Apologies for snark but these players are all adult women who have been in competitive sports all their lives. They know the "score."

 

[Volfaninfl2]

That's for the chance to clarify my earlier post.

First, I wrote "top-level D1" caliber players. Do you think Lou or Kam, McCoy, KK, Saunders, or Rennie are envisioning themselves as being All-Americans or all conference players this season?

You don't think they know their roles, limitations and who shoulders the responsibility for carrying the offensive load (Davis, Jordan, Jazz)?

Second, to also clarify the LVs do not have serious final four aspiration this year because they have to play the players they have due to injuries and transfers. That was my point.

You think these players have not noticed "a gap" when they matched up against Uconn, USC or Stanford.

Third, I am pretty confident that Key, and Horston know that they are freshman who lack experience. So, my post should not come as a shock to them. I also said that I expect they are going to bet a lot better by June and, particularly in regard to uber talented Jordan, everyone just needs to accept her growing pains.

Nothing in my post in any way disparaged the coaching staff. I was responding to all the negativity that follows after a loss like this which only makes sense if posters are assuming that the LVs should be battling right in there with the #1 team in the country;

I also said that this team, in order to compete, needs to play cohesive defense for a full game but right now, they can't manage that (but by March....).

Team work and effort can overcome talent disparities but you have to know what your strengths and weaknesses are and not hide in a self-esteem protection bubble. And there is no way that Kellie is letting that happen.

Finally, what? you said the team has "over achieved"?

Why make that statement, mid season in a public forum, with a tough stretch of games coming up? Why won't that discourage the players?

Apologies for snark but these players are all adult women who have been in competitive sports all their lives. They know the "score."

This is what you wrote concerning Lou, Rae, Harris, KK, and McCoy, all players giving their all for the Lady Vols:

On Lou: “she is the caliber of player you would expect to find playing for a mid-level, mid-major conference team, not one with serious Final four aspirations

Rae has more overall ability but her game, at its current state, would not see much floor time for these top 10 clubs either.

Harris, KK, McCoy same story as Lou.”

Why make these comments at all about players who are working so hard? I find it disappointing that anyone says any of our players are not good enough to be where they are, to ease the concerns of fans who should already understand the difficulties this team works to overcome every day.

 

[volnationnj]

This is what you wrote concerning Lou, Rae, Harris, KK, and McCoy, all players giving their all for the Lady Vols:

On Lou: “she is the caliber of player you would expect to find playing for a mid-level, mid-major conference team, not one with serious Final four aspirations

Rae has more overall ability but her game, at its current state, would not see much floor time for these top 10 clubs either.

Harris, KK, McCoy same story as Lou.”

Why make these comments at all about players who are working so hard? I find it disappointing that anyone says any of our players are not good enough to be where they are, to ease the concerns of fans who should already understand the difficulties this team works to overcome every day.

I'm not sure, are you objecting to
Madtownvol's evaluation of those players mentioned, or that he expressed those opinions on this forum ?

 

[Volfaninfl2]

I'm not sure, are you objecting to
Madtownvol's evaluation of those players mentioned, or that he expressed those opinions on this forum ?

that he expressed those opinions. A bad play or game is one thing to criticize, but this is saying you’re not good enough, when they are all working so hard.

 

[Coach Jumper]

that he expressed those opinions. A bad play or game is one thing to criticize, but this is saying you’re not good enough, when they are all working so hard.

well said!

The season isn't over

 

[glv98]

discourage half the players on our team by telling them they are not D-1 caliber players?

We way, way overestimate our own importance if we think anything said here affects the team or coaches in any way. Ditto for recruiting. We are a couple of dozen keyboard warriors pontificating to each other. Fun but harmless and no one much cares what we think.

These kids have been very high level players for half their lives. They learned long ago they'll be analyzed and criticized by armchair coaches and learned to ignore it. Beyonce is not going to quit recording because I don't like her music.

What human under 30 logs in and reads internet fan boards anyway? Their social media is twitter, instagram, etc. I know there are often claims that posters know for sure so and so reads this board. I doubt it, but if true they and/or their parents should stop doing so immediately and go do some ball handling drills. Ask Evina's Mom, whose disastrous involvement should be a lesson to all. Ignore us, we don't matter.

If a D1 player gets discouraged because of what us fanatics blather on a fan board, they have way bigger focus and mindset problems than we thought.

 

[Coach Jumper]

We don’t know all we know is we have 8 national championships and the LV name is still well and alive.

How many national titles does your team have and don’t you dare say 11 because you are not a Husky fan

Also last time TN was out recruited like this they got a #1 class, then two top ten classes in a row. So I feel pretty optimistic that with time this staff can sell this school and team.

PS it was not unheard of for TN to get out recruited because it was Pat Summitt’s dad that told her she can’t take a mule to the Kentucky Derby so she went to work on recruiting! She also brought in Mickie DeMoss for recruiting purposes to help increase her recruiting.

Just a little fun TN trivia for you

I am a coach who takes athletes and makes ballers out of them

Pat's Dad had it right,
you can teach a thoroughbred to do a mules work but you can't teach a mule to run like a thoroughbred

The key is to be smarter and more stubborn than a mule when teaching the thoroughbred

 

[Coach Jumper]

We way, way overestimate our own importance if we think anything said here affects the team or coaches in any way. Ditto for recruiting. We are a couple of dozen keyboard warriors pontificating to each other. Fun but harmless and no one much cares what we think.

These kids have been very high level players for half their lives. They learned long ago they'll be analyzed and criticized by armchair coaches and learned to ignore it. Beyonce is not going to quit recording because I don't like her music.

What human under 30 logs in and reads internet fan boards anyway? Their social media is twitter, instagram, etc. I know there are often claims that posters know for sure so and so reads this board. I doubt it, but if true they and/or their parents should stop doing so immediately and go do some ball handling drills. Ask Evina's Mom, whose disastrous involvement should be a lesson to all. Ignore us, we don't matter.

If a D1 player gets discouraged because of what us fanatics blather on a fan board, they have way bigger focus and mindset problems than we thought.

You speak of assumptions? , and then make this asinine assumption. Go on believing that and by the way, there's probably a dime under your pillow if you've lost a tooth lately.

 

[volnationnj]

that he expressed those opinions. A bad play or game is one thing to criticize, but this is saying you’re not good enough, when they are all working so hard.

Hmmm. Interesting.
Since you object to his expressing those opinions, but not their accuracy, I can only conclude that you agree with his assessments of the mentioned players ability. You just disagree that they should be expressed, by a fan not a coach, on a forum dedicated to those players and the team they play on.
But isn't a coach telling a player pretty much the same thing (about their level of play) when, game after game, they get very little or no playing time whatsoever ?
That coach is saying, in effect, "Your present level of play isn't up to the teams standards".
The coach can offer positive reinforcement by telling that same player that more playing time will come from improved performance
in practice (be it shooting, passing, defense, etc.).
I doubt it's some secret, unmentionable truth among the players, of why some players get 30 minutes a game while others don't get in at all.
Finally, let's accept your statement
"When they're all working so hard"
as accurate. Why then do some players get 30+ minutes a game while others zero ? Should all the players get equal playing time because they're all working hard ?
I think you would agree that they shouldn't get equal playing time.
Why ? Because some players can be effective at this level of play while others can't.

 

[creekdipper]

Just a brief thought about how it's pissible to "like" both madtown's and volfan's posts (w/o being wishy-washy, hypocritical, or schizophrenic).

I am 100% sure that madtown was sincere in saying that his intent was not to disparage the team (and I personally don't see that he did). At the same time, I can see that volfan is defending our ladies and having their backs after comments which he feels only serve to discourage players and which downplay their ability.

Both have their hearts in the right place, and both have a lot more in common than not. Volfan doesn't necessarily disagree with the oversll individual skill assessnlments but thinks the timing of the analysis is misguided. I get his point on that.

At the same time, madtown clearly indicated that he expects to see an improved team in March. That's an encouraging and optimistic outlook, IMO, and tells the players that he expects them to get better. It doesn't limit them to their current performance levels or say that they can never match up against top tier opponents.

I think when Volfan says that we have "overachieved," it's expressing a very similar reality assessment of our current limitations (which can be managed and improved). We all want the same thing for our ladies and want them to have a memorable and fulfilling college experience and future. And we don't take their contributions and sacrifices lightly. They earn those scholarships.

Kellie has taken a realistic approach to thois season, often saying that the goal is to be "the best team that we can be." Same could be said for the staff. I think Kellie understands that she has to prove that she can be a "top tier" D-1 coach and compete for championships.

(Well, that rambling wasn't brief...hope it makes sense and. expresses the idea that both you guys love our players and want the best for them).

 

[Volfan2012]

We'll continue to be inconsistent as long as most of our players are inconsistent in their play. Right now we only have two players that are giving consistent and efficient efforts on the court in almost every game. We'll need other players to step up to that level or we'll continue to lose to the higher ranked teams. We can beat Miss St but not if several players continue to play like they did versus SC. You can beat the lower and middle teams with two players being consistent not going to happen when you get in the top ten.

 

[volnationnj]

Just a brief thought about how it's pissible to "like" both madtown's and volfan's posts (w/o being wishy-washy, hypocritical, or schizophrenic).

I am 100% sure that madtown was sincere in saying that his intent was not to disparage the team (and I personally don't see that he did). At the same time, I can see that volfan is defending our ladies and having their backs after comments which he feels only serve to discourage players and which downplay their ability.

Both have their hearts in the right place, and both have a lot more in common than not. Volfan doesn't necessarily disagree with the oversll individual skill assessnlments but thinks the timing of the analysis is misguided. I get his point on that.

At the same time, madtown clearly indicated that he expects to see an improved team in March. That's an encouraging and optimistic outlook, IMO, and tells the players that he expects them to get better. It doesn't limit them to their current performance levels or say that they can never match up against top tier opponents.

I think when Volfan says that we have "overachieved," it's expressing a very similar reality assessment of our current limitations (which can be managed and improved). We all want the same thing for our ladies and want them to have a memorable and fulfilling college experience and future. And we don't take their contributions and sacrifices lightly. They earn those scholarships.

Kellie has taken a realistic approach to thois season, often saying that the goal is to be "the best team that we can be." Same could be said for the staff. I think Kellie understands that she has to prove that she can be a "top tier" D-1 coach and compete for championships.


(Well, that rambling wasn't brief...hope it makes sense and. expresses the idea that both you guys love our players and want the best for them).

A rational response. Thank you.

 

[Raebo]

I don’t like trolls or people that are negative all the time. I also don’t like comments that always pump up the team like they are a top 5 team despite the evidence. I don’t like posts that make it sound like all our players are 1st team All Americans. I don’t like posts that says a player has a low basketball IQ or the should be “punished” for bad play.

I like reading post that express honest opinions. I would hope the players are getting feedback and advice from their coaches and not from posts.

The forum would be pretty boring if all the posts were sunshine pumpers.
My goodness, if you think madtown’s post was in poor taste, I guess you didn’t read any of the football posts last fall. Calling for players to be run off the team or should never see the field, etc..

 

[mcannon1]

many of you need your own reality check..if tennessee hasnt learned how to correct its mistakes by now, it wont magically learn by ncaa tourny time..

RIGHT.

 

[Creekdog]

If players and/or coaches are reading this forum the program is in worse shape than any if us could imagine.

 

[creekdipper]

A rational response. Thank you.

Well, I intended to write "possible" instead of the Freudian slip substititing "i" for "o"...even though the former letter seems ironically appropriate. (shrug)

 

[GameTime]

Morning guys...How about a little levity.

 

[madtownvol]

I am a coach who takes athletes and makes ballers out of them

Pat's Dad had it right,
you can teach a thoroughbred to do a mules work but you can't teach a mule to run like a thoroughbred

The key is to be smarter and more stubborn than a mule when teaching the thoroughbred

Well, Mr. Head's comment presumes 1) that there is a difference between mules and thoroughbreds and 2) that people/coaches can tell the difference; and 3) that each athlete needs to play different roles.

I am curious why you were down on my OP given your horse whisperer comment. You can whisper to a mule but it just won't run as fast as the thoroughbred.

Again, I have to ask- do you believe that say Lou Brown does not know that Rennia, for example is a far more talented player than she is and that she simply can't do what Rennia can do on the court? And that one of them has an WNBA career in the wings and that the other will be moving on to another life phase after college? These players don't live in a vacuum.

Or again, that Jordan and Key don't know they have work to do.

I stand by the shocking public assessment that Kam Harris, Lou Brown, McCoy would not be starting for say Baylor or Oregon and that you find players at their caliber more commonly at mid major programs.

My post was offered as a corrective to some of the punitive freakout comments that arose after the LVs lost to a much higher ranked team. What the LVs need to do to overcome that talent gap takes time in terms of coaching and recruiting.

And on that note, closing that gap (even partially) means that this team has to have more a junk yard dog mindset (sorry for switching animal analogies) If the mule can't outrun the thoroughbred, it dang well better out plow it.

 

[Coach Jumper]

If players and/or coaches are reading this forum the program is in worse shape than any if us could imagine.

I disagree totally and this is why if they're not reading these forms. They're missing a valuable source of information and available source of potentials. Players. Even if the players don't work out and the source is Not credible it is still a source. And there are quite a few very basketball knowledgeable Posters on the site and they ignore the advice. And the wisdom that comes from some of these posters. And I do mean some of these posters. Would be a Fool's play. And I know for a fact know that this isn't the only thing that reads. Social media other teams do so, and I know this to be a fact.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Well, Mr. Head's comment presumes 1) that there is a difference between mules and thoroughbreds and 2) that people/coaches can tell the difference; and 3) that each athlete needs to play different roles.

I am curious why you were down on my OP given your horse whisperer comment. You can whisper to a mule but it just won't run as fast as the thoroughbred.

Again, I have to ask- do you believe that say Lou Brown does not know that Rennia, for example is a far more talented player than she is and that she simply can't do what Rennia can do on the court? And that one of them has an WNBA career in the wings and that the other will be moving on to another life phase after college? These players don't live in a vacuum.

Or again, that Jordan and Key don't know they have work to do.

I stand by the shocking public assessment that Kam Harris, Lou Brown, McCoy would not be starting for say Baylor or Oregon and that you find players at their caliber more commonly at mid major programs.

My post was offered as a corrective to some of the punitive freakout comments that arose after the LVs lost to a much higher ranked team. What the LVs need to do to overcome that talent gap takes time in terms of coaching and recruiting.

And on that note, closing that gap (even partially) means that this team has to have more a junk yard dog mindset (sorry for switching animal analogies) If the mule can't outrun, it dang well better out plow it.

All I can say right now is I sometimes post on my phone on break. I don't post while I'm at work. And I am at work. So I will address these when I get home.

 

[krichunaka]

I’ve read most every word of every post on this latest from Madtownvol. There’s little that he said to disagree with; hey, he delivered as his advertised title suggested.
And yet, I’m more in line with Volfaninfl2 in this case. Mad’s “call it like I see it” take probably will not devastate any one of the players mentioned, if in fact they do wander over to hear our latest. But, to chalk it up to pure honest assessment, to me at least, misses the broader point, and to some extent it lacks accuracy. But, another time, another place. So, another fine piece by Madtownvol - typically honest and well-written - and too good for my rantings.
Cheers.

 

[creekdipper]

Coach, I took Creekdog's comment to he meant as a joke rather than a serious observation. I almost quoted it with some as my response.

Hey, maybe I'm wrong about his intent, but you know us Creeks got to run together.

 

[creekdipper]

I just hope our ladies play their hearts out, play smart, and never concede until the final buzzer. May they exemplify the Tennessee mindset of hating to lose more than loving to win.

I'm sure the staff has set individual goals for each player (in addition to the goals that player has set for herself). If they work toward achieving or exceeding the goals, the results will be impressive.

 

[Volfan2012]

I think were playing a lot harder than anytime in the last several seasons. Do we goof up a lot and have a bench that is ineffective not to hard to see that is the case. Even if we lose the next four games I still think Harper has done a very good job with the roster she inherited. I had already drawn up my expectation before the season started and we're really close to what I expected. Have I been surprised by the way some players have performed yes I expected more from some and there are a couple that I expected less. I still think were headed for a 20 win season and I think that is a great start for Coach Harper.