Recruiting Forum Football Talk II

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#108,204
#108,204
chargervol said:
I'm not even sure how my dogs still having natural social instincts became about a tv trainer's method tbh. We can always do off topic. Just quote my below response in off topic if necessary, but I'm honestly not sure it is.
As far as social dynamics, I gave a halfhearted attempt to understand if you were suggesting the hierarchy doesn't exist because they eat together but I'm not sure.
If so, AND ONLY IF SO, I can pull up actual videos of Wolves establishing said hierarchy. Even starts as pups.

I can pull a recent documentary of the replacement happening by the established beta. Or even a painted wolf female (sister to the alpha male) that attempts to mate and ends up driven from the pack. It wasn't only avoiding inbreeding, it was submission that held her back.

All these are actual wolves, not written papers. A few from the most established wolf sanctuary on the planet.
Once again, only if you're suggesting it doesn't exist.
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The scope of the discussion has gotten pretty unruly, and I think we're all talking about different things, and I'm ready to let this one die lol. Nice chat though, brother.
 
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#108,207
#108,207
VolNectar said:
I don't want to get tossed from the RF so I swear I'm done after this. That article was a quick grab off google, not the basis of my thoughts on the matter, so I apologize for being hasty. I still think there's a miscommunication about the way we're using terms, and what I mean when I say pack hierarchy/dominance theory is no longer supported by most animal behaviorists. Here are some better resources if either of you are interested in reading more. If you're not, that's cool. If you guys have any sources besides Cesar that still advocate Cesar's style of training, I'd love to see them. I haven't been able to find much, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can before bringing this new pup home.

https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Dominance_Position_Statement_download-10-3-14.pdf
https://apdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/dominance-and-dog-training.pdf
The Dominance Controversy
(PDF) Dominance versus leadership in dog training
Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors - ScienceDirect
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I only brought up Cesar because the article you posted and many of these seem to use him as somewhat of a strawman. Really most of what he does is the same as what the different articles you posted are recommending. The main difference I can see is somehow I guess they define any form of correcting bad behavior as dominance. The last one even lists off a bunch of examples of bad ways to correct behavior which I have never seen Cesar or any reputable trainers use. Here is that list.
confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43%), “growl at dog” (41%), “physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39%), “alpha roll” (31%), “stare at or stare [dog] down” (30%), “dominance down” (29%), and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (
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I would agree that those are excessive and not generally effective. And positive reinforcement is definitely very effective and should be probably the main focus. But eliminating any negative reinforcement or corrective actions goes too far imo. The slight touch to the side to redirect focus is very effective. Making the dog wait until they are calm and look to you for approval before getting what they want is effective as well. Those are both things those articles seem to fault cesar for. I don't think everyone can or should do things the way he does. He's just someone with a show. He also is dealing with dogs with far worse issues than the vast majority of pet owners will have to deal with and most of those issues tend to be because the people who have those dogs have no clue what they are doing and show no leadership at all.

Bottom line imo using a mixture of positive reinforcement and corrective actions, without abusing, is the way to go. And getting the dog to understand that you are in charge and trusting you to lead them. Which you can do without abusing them. I guess abusing is how they define dominance. Also it helps to be more stubborn than the dog.

Tldr this is actually the best method.

 
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#108,208
#108,208
MoCo_Vol said:
I mean, I suppose as long as you ain't leaving a poor Husky or cold weather dog outside in the 100+ TN summer heat good deal.


But ya walk into a shelter and make a strong stance about "hey I'm pay for this here rescue dog and leave it outside 24/7, take my money" you can't exactly be surprised they'd balk at the idea. Most the time that's the exact situation they were rescued from...sometimes the owners left a dog unattended and chained up outside. Or sometimes the dog was a stray and outside 24/7 cause of that...but they without question will consider leaving a pet outside only as neglect, can't act shocked by that.

You may have a personal opinion it's "where a dog wants to be" but they also ain't gotta let you leave with a dog just cause you got the money either.
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Money had nothing to do with it. It was much cheaper to get a mixed breed off Craigslist. We wanted to try and save a dog from the gas chamber. It had less to do with their policy but how we were treated, much like third class citizens. Their condescending and mightier than thou, I'm better than you attitude is what I had more of a problem with. If I lived in a suburban subdivision I would never consider having a dog outside, even if I had a fenced in yard. I would be courteous to my neighbors and wouldn't want my dogs barking all night to be a problem. We are not in that situation. We live in the country with no visible neighbors. We have a pond, two barns. A covered porch for a dog to lay on and get out of the weather. I also built an insulated dog house, in which we placed a heated pad in the winter time.

I grew up in the mid to late 70's in a large subdivision. It was a different time. My friends and I were outside until dark about every night. We all had dogs. We knew each other's dogs. When my friends dog from two streets over was at my house with my dog at feeding time, it got fed too. Vice versa when my dog was at their house. The dogs would follow us everywhere around the neighborhood. When we went to build our clubhouse from scrap lumber on a vacant lot, the dogs were right with us.

We had an inside dog once when I was growing up. It was a Boston terrier bulldog. It's the only dog I remember getting hit by a car. It never wanted to be inside. One day when I came home from school, I cracked the door and she took off. Ran straight into the street and was hit and killed.

I don't really care about those shelters. I learned my lesson. I'll never step foot in one again. Not sure who benefits from that. Some think the animal, some think otherwise. I guess there's no way to know. But I'm happy with rescuing dogs off Craigslist or Facebook.
 
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#108,216
#108,216
coskramer said:
Dogs are Family

View attachment 261228
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If those are yours, please lose the cage. The dogs will live a much happier life with no cage. I rescued a dog 10 years ago, from the dog pound, and they told me to keep him in a cage or he would tear up my furniture. Like a dumb a$$ I bought a cage and kept him in it when I was not home. It broke my heart and his too. One day I decided to leave him out of the cage and leave for an hour. When I returned, he was asleep on the couch. I threw the cage in the garbage and never looked back. My home is his home.
 
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#108,218
#108,218
HoleInTheRoof said:
-vq
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We went from 4th in the SEC in rz TD% to 13th last year. Hard to pinpoint just one issue, but Chaney needs to find what was working before or something new. Maybe Joey O and Long can help here. And if JG is going to be the QB this year, he better live in the film room and practice field down inside the 20. RZ is by far our biggest offensive issue.
 
#108,220
#108,220
Smokeytom said:
I feel like were all sitting here like

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#108,225
#108,225
chargervol said:
Obviously found it more helpful to research myself. Nothing is "debunked" but instead (of course) highly debated.
It was also later found that when a matriarch died, the replacement befehl to next most dominant animal in wolf society.

That dominance predetermined by aggression in years leading up to the passing of a matriarch. Putting hierarchy very much, back into play.

But more to the current subject. A new discovery, thanks to modern technology and security cams being linked through internet, shows many dogs suffer from abandonment anxiety than previously thought.

From whining or other obvious anxiety related behavior, to just lying beside the door. And lying there for as many of 6 of the 8 or 9 hours that a typical owner is gone from the home.
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My dog goes upstairs and hides in the bedroom if we're both gone. And we get the puppy dog eyes when we are leaving. It's really bad if we're leaving at the same time. I usually go out out first then let him come out a little later. Yeah, she is way more spoiled than our kids ever were.
 
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