Religious debate (split from main board)

#881
#881
OrangeEmpire said:
For the heck of it....

  • Do you have any kind of spiritual beliefs?
  • To you, who is Jesus?
  • Do you think there is a heaven or a hell?
  • If you died tonight, where would you go?
  • By the way, if what you were believing is not true, would you want to know?
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* No. My "beliefs" in the sense of what I believe to be true, are based on what can be shown to be true, rather than thought to be true. I do not have "faith" in anything. My "beliefs" in the sense of my ethics and morals are entirely different.

* Jesus of Nazareth was a teacher and religious figure in the Middle East who lived around the area of 6 B.C. to 33 A.D. He was largely ignored during his lifetime but his followers were very devoted and long after his death he became the subject of writings from various authors, which became the gospels as we know them today. Stories of his travels, exploits, and execution are likely to be greatly exaggerated, since they resemble common literary themes prominent at the time. Like any subject of a tall tale, he was a real person at some point, but a factual account of his life is difficult to find since very little was written down at the time he was alive. The most mythical of events attributed to him include the claim that he was the Son of the Jewish God, that he was resurrected on the third day following his execution (common to other messianic figures of religions of the time), and so on.

* That depends on your definitions of heaven and hell. Actually, never mind. It pretty much doesn't, since almost every definition implies some sort of afterlife. So no.

* Where would I go? I'd assume I would be taken to the hospital, or barring that, a morgue. Then I would be covered in cosmetics and pumped full of chemicals so that my body could be displayed at a wake. A little while later, I would be put into a casket and buried under six feet of ground. There would likely be a funny man with a hat saying something about how I've gone to a better place and reading out of a book, since my family seems to like that sort of thing. All this time I would not be conscious. In fact, my brain will have ceased to function, and the longer it went without nutrients and oxygen, the further the neural connections within would deteriorate. Eventually it will be completely gone. The data stored in those connections would be lost with them, sort of like files on a hard drive thrown into an incinerator. So "I", in the sense of the consciousness inhabiting this body, would be gone.

* Certainly I would like to know. If there were a God, almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen, that would be the greatest discovery in the young history of our kind. I like fiction. I like going to a movie and being entertained. I can tell myself subconsciously "These blue cat people on the screen aren't real, this is all just a story" but that doesn't make the story less entertaining or real while I'm there. But when I leave the theater I realize that while it would be way cool if all that stuff were real, it's not. Finding out what's true and what's fiction is unimportant to some people, but to me it's my life. If there were a planet out there with blue cat people I would like to know about it.

(There's a funny bit of conversation I once heard when someone asked Christopher Hitchens a question like this. He said something to the effect of "No, I wouldn't like it if there were a God. It would be like having a perpetually annoying, perfectionist parent who would always be watching you and making sure you don't get any free time, always judging you and deciding whether or not you deserve a treat. But even though he or she always tells you they love you no matter what, you'll never be comfortable with them because you will never live up to their standards. And the worst part of all is that they will never die and leave you alone")
 
#882
#882
OrangeEmpire said:
The real question is why do you care?

I don't care what you believe, why do you care what I believe?
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Because I keep an open mind and I am always judging what other people believe, whether or not what they believe is closer to the truth or further from the truth from what I already believe. God is the single most important question ever considered. I really don't care whether or not you believe in a God, but I want to know why, to see if there's ever a reason I haven't thought of yet.
 
#883
#883
OrangeEmpire said:
For the heck of it....

  • Do you have any kind of spiritual beliefs?
  • To you, who is Jesus?
  • Do you think there is a heaven or a hell?
  • If you died tonight, where would you go?
  • By the way, if what you were believing is not true, would you want to know?
Click to expand...

I'll give it a go.

Not really.

Jesus was a great man and there is strong evidence he existed, but i don't believe in his miracles and i'm not sure if he were around today he'd be saying he did said miracles. I consider this akin to those the supposed miracles of the pope john paul or any number of other "saints." People indulge or let's face it, make things up to inflate what people they admired did after that person dies.

I very much doubt there is a heaven or hell. I certainly don't believe that if the christian god exists that it sends good people ot hell simply because they don't believe he/she exists.

I believe i'd cease to exist.

Depends. Am i going to hell no matter what I do? :)

edit: why does it seriously disturb me that my beliefs are on par with Snakes on a Wii.
 
#884
#884
CSpindizzy said:
I have been looking for someone with intense scientific knowledge to show me how you can take someone who just died and bring them back to life. Someone explained that we are just electrical impulses as far as our functionality. Well then put a new battery in Grandpa and let him have another 20 years. Energizers will suffice.
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The answer is you can't. Assuming they are "brain dead", it is pretty much impossible in practice, but never impossible in principle. There are very few things that are impossible in principle. But, since we are limited in our resources, intelligence, and skill, there are many things that are impossible in practice.
 
#886
#886
droski said:
I'll give it a go.

Not really.

Jesus was a great man and there is strong evidence he existed, but i don't believe in his miracles and i'm not sure if he were around today he'd be saying he did said miracles. I consider this akin to those the supposed miracles of the pope john paul or any number of other "saints." People indulge or let's face it, make things up to inflate what people they admired did after that person dies.

I very much doubt there is a heaven or hell. I certainly don't believe that if the christian god exists that it sends good people ot hell simply because they don't believe he/she exists.

I believe i'd cease to exist.

Depends. Am i going to hell no matter what I do? :)

edit: why does it seriously disturb me that my beliefs are on par with Snakes on a Wii.
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Because the truth is one thing, politics are another. I stopped being puzzled at why so many smart people happened to be Republicans when I discovered that politics has little to do with intelligence and a lot to do with personal values.
 
#888
#888
Snakes on a Wii said:
Because the truth is one thing, politics are another. I stopped being puzzled at why so many smart people happened to be Republicans when I discovered that politics has little to do with intelligence and a lot to do with personal values.
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Gotta get that gov't endorsement in there......

I haven't talked about gov't in 5 minutes......

Oh no!

:crazy:
 
#889
#889
droski said:
i'm wicked smart boy. :the_finger:
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I've known smart Democrats and smart Republicans. Curiously the people who were raised with conservative values tended to be Republicans and the ones who were raised with liberal values tended to be Democrats. And both groups, being smart people after all, tended to think that because they thought like they did, since they were so smart, they must have been right.
 
#890
#890
OrangeEmpire said:
Gotta get that gov't endorsement in there......

I haven't talked about gov't in 5 minutes......

Oh no!

:crazy:
Click to expand...

I love how everyone thinks I'm a huge fan of the government. I'm not. I spent the last 8 years of my life despising the government and it looks to be like I'll be doing the same for the next 4 :eek:lol:
 
#891
#891
Snakes on a Wii said:
Because the truth is one thing, politics are another. I stopped being puzzled at why so many smart people happened to be Republicans when I discovered that politics has little to do with intelligence and a lot to do with personal values.
Click to expand...

Huh? What do you mean? :eek:hmy:

















Just Kidding.
 
#892
#892
You don't have to hide your true feelings. We all know you have circle jerks with friends over the capitol building.
 
#893
#893
So let me get this straight - a group of people who most were not skilled in writing in the prose of the period were willing to believe and spread a set teaching to the point of death. Keep in mind this was not just some homogenous sect. This covered numerous nationalities.

Those who could have easily disproved this group with 'fact' did not do so. Read the Jewish manuscripts that survived even after Jerusalem was sacked. There was nothing to disprove what later became the Gospels.

You say "likely to be exaggerated". Odd statement since you seem to base your views on something having to be fact. You have no proof of this but make this part of your own belief.

I beg to differ on what was written on him. Firsthand accounts were written by witnesses. Each had different backgrounds but have corresponding stories. Yes, these were written AFTER Jesus died but they were written by witnesses. Luke, a scientific mind, wrote in a manner to ensure proof and detail were included in his writings. Matthew a disciple wrote addressing a Jewish audience. John wrote to a Gentile audience. Each had varying styles with varying backgrounds. But each corresponded with the other versions.

Again, you had centurions, tax collectors, Pharisees, landowners in privilege, etc. all writing each with their own styles and motivations but all telling the same story even to differing audiences. Each of these did so under the threat of the most extreme punishments inflicted on mankind. To get such a varying group of people all doing this while risking lives is unheard of. So if we are talking motivations and facts surrounding the authors, I will take this view over one that assumes that just because other people mutilate and embelish talltales, therefore this falls into the same category.
 
#894
#894
I grew up in the crazy FDR dixie crat wing of the democratic party. I went republican for a little while and couldn't stand the non sense both side spew.

I'll be stuck voting other for a long time.
 
#895
#895
Snakes on a Wii said:
The answer is you can't. Assuming they are "brain dead", it is pretty much impossible in practice, but never impossible in principle. There are very few things that are impossible in principle. But, since we are limited in our resources, intelligence, and skill, there are many things that are impossible in practice.
Click to expand...

But if we can do this for those on the verge of death (not in all cases, mind you) why can we not do so shortly after death? What causes a body to completely cease function to the point of no return? We have the same means and knowledge but yet it cannot be done. What is the key?
 
#897
#897
CSpindizzy said:
So let me get this straight - a group of people who most were not skilled in writing in the prose of the period were willing to believe and spread a set teaching to the point of death. Keep in mind this was not just some homogenous sect. This covered numerous nationalities.

Those who could have easily disproved this group with 'fact' did not do so. Read the Jewish manuscripts that survived even after Jerusalem was sacked. There was nothing to disprove what later became the Gospels.

You say "likely to be exaggerated". Odd statement since you seem to base your views on something having to be fact. You have no proof of this but make this part of your own belief.

I beg to differ on what was written on him. Firsthand accounts were written by witnesses. Each had different backgrounds but have corresponding stories. Yes, these were written AFTER Jesus died but they were written by witnesses. Luke, a scientific mind, wrote in a manner to ensure proof and detail were included in his writings. Matthew a disciple wrote addressing a Jewish audience. John wrote to a Gentile audience. Each had varying styles with varying backgrounds. But each corresponded with the other versions.

Again, you had centurions, tax collectors, Pharisees, landowners in privilege, etc. all writing each with their own styles and motivations but all telling the same story even to differing audiences. Each of these did so under the threat of the most extreme punishments inflicted on mankind. To get such a varying group of people all doing this while risking lives is unheard of. So if we are talking motivations and facts surrounding the authors, I will take this view over one that assumes that just because other people mutilate and embelish talltales, therefore this falls into the same category.
Click to expand...

we have little to no evidence as to who wrote the differing versions of the bible. we have some evidence as to when those books were written (most generations after said events happened), but as to the actual authors little to no proof. i have no idea if jesus was the son of god or did what people say he did. i only question it enough to not believe it.
 
#899
#899
droski said:
we have little to no evidence as to who wrote the differing versions of the bible. we have some evidence as to when those books were written (most generations after said events happened), but as to the actual authors little to no proof. i have no idea if jesus was the son of god or did what people say he did. i only question it enough to not believe it.
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We have as much historical evidence as saying who built the pyramids, etc. We have enough to say that those who wrote several books do in fact match in style. Your logic basically says we have no proof Darwin wrote the Origin of the Species unless someone or better yet many people stood over his shoulder and watched him write it out. The same goes for Tolstoy, Marx, Dumas, or any other author for that matter.
 
#900
#900
CSpindizzy said:
We have as much historical evidence as saying who built the pyramids, etc. We have enough to say that those who wrote several books do in fact match in style. Your logic basically says we have no proof Darwin wrote the Origin of the Species unless someone or better yet many people stood over his shoulder and watched him write it out. The same goes for Tolstoy, Marx, Dumas, or any other author for that matter.
Click to expand...

i don't really find the two comparable. particurally when you consider the origin of the species was written well over a 1,000 years later.
 
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