Rubble

[Ulysees E. McGill]

We will finish in the top 10 in the final recruiting rankings in February and the whole basis of this post will be rendered irrelevant.

Umm..we ain't sniffing top 10. This class is a casualty of war, at this point the best I hope for is that JP and staff can minimize the damage...IF...he pulls a top 10 or closer, it will be a great recruiting job.

 

[BearBryant]

I am just venting here..

Years of self serving incompetent "leadership" has literally left one of the best football programs in the country in complete rubble.

We thought we had seen rock bottom under Dooley only to see Botch Jones give us the worst season in program history. Now, 10 years after the pathetic display that was the firing of Fulmer, we find ourselves without a freaking recruiting class. The lack of a legitimate recruiting class will put, which was likely another 5 year rebuild anyway, another 2-3 years on top of that.

Given the facts:

Unproven new HC
A year without a recruiting class
The national embarrassment that was the coaching "search"

And going winless in the SEC this year, many of will not be around the next time Tennessee fields a competitive football team.

God I hope I am wrong. I hope Pruitt is the next Nick Saban. I hope the humiliation that was the coaching search will quickly be forgotten. I hope our new staff is so good that they can somehow make up for this whiff of a recruiting class but the last 10 years have been so pitiful that hope and trust just don't give many the same optimism that they once did.

I guess we have no choice but to put up with crap however long it last.

I agree with the leadership issue.

But I'm proud that the fans stood up and stopped that ridiculous hiring of Schiano.

I suppose you would have rather seen that go through so you wouldn't be embarrassed!

Imagine if it had gone through, and we would be listening to ESPN, SI, Finebaum bring up the Sandusky scandal everyday.

So I'm not embarrassed, as a matter of fact I'm proud to be part of slapping the Main Stream Media in the face.

What happened is GREAT for the University of Tennessee. Having Phil Fulmer as AD is great. He deserved it, earned, and he has UT as his No. 1 priority!!

No one can predict if Pruitt will be successful. But I will say so far he is doing the right things, and he is getting apparently great vibes on the recruiting front.

So don't be scared, that we didn't do what ESPN, CBS, Finebaum, SI, etc. wanted us to do.

Close and lock you doors, stay inside, watch TV and let them tell you how you should think.

Me, I'm going outside and telling the Main Stream Media to "stick it"!!!!

 

[sjt18]

Good thoughts, but I don't know that your first year coach test is quite as telling as you make it sound.

Great coaches, coach great. Yeah, cliché... but true. Great coaches make the most of what they have. They do it in the first year. They do it in the 10th year. It is part of their make up and skill set. The exception would be a cupboard bare of talent or a team with significant discipline issues. Neither is the case at UT.

Maybe the test should be in year two or later. There are plenty of coaches that had horrible first years that turned out great. For example, Saban at Bama first year 6-6, Kirby last year at UGA 7-5. The rosters on 2007 Bama and 2016 UGA had much more talent than those results.

UGA had issues and holes. Then lost their RB's. Even so they were 5 points away from being an 11 win team. They took Jones' overwhelmingly superior talented team to a hail mary. Only once did the score get anything like out of hand (Ole Miss)... and that game wasn't completely uncompetitive.


Bama had significant discipline issues requiring Saban to tell a lot of guys to not come back. Even with the turmoil... they didn't lose a single game by more than a TD. You could look and see that minor tweaks and some talent help would fix it. The obvious bad loss was ULM. But that has proven to be just one of those statistical anomalies over time.

Were they horrible coaches because of that after year one. No, of course not. Sometimes it takes a couple years to implement the system. You can't really tell anything from the results in Year one. IMO.

You may have to interpret a little more... but you can tell almost EVERYTHING from year one.

With Jones, we can see that he was going to have some success recruiting at least according to the rankings. We could tell he was going to have personal energy and try to convey it to the team through clichés and slogans. We knew he was going to impose some strict disciplines for things like meetings and other non-football activities with the hope those habits would translate to the team. We knew that he valued "character"... even in light of some of the revelations this fall concerning his.

We knew that he was not adaptable but believed in his "system"... and would be determined to pound any round peg through that square hole. (Ultimately, he didn't recruit well to his own system).

Most importantly... we had every reason to know that he was going to have problems on game day. He overestimated opponents and underestimated his own team. He had a virtual phobia against trusting his players to make the plays to win games... he would call it "managing the game". He was never a very good "manager". He was stubborn and inflexible. He didn't adapt well. He didn't adjust effectively.

Five of Jones 7 losses were by 14 points or more. Four... UT looked like homecoming fodder. The roster had more talent than that. The average margin of loss was 23 points. With a bowl on the line... Jones was unable to beat a Vandy team that was inferior in talent.

There were a few indications that he could be abusive behind the scenes. Helm and Hendrix (maybe others) left because of it. Fans of course blamed the players... but ultimately this played into Jones losing respect and control of the program. He was a "bully" and people finally got enough.


If you were willing to see, signs of him not being the right guy were present in year one. Too many chose to delude themselves. That can't be fixed... but folks don't have to do it again with Pruitt or anyone who follows.

 

[sjt18]

Oh, we also saw in year one that Jones had no clue concerning the make up or talent required in a coaching staff to win in the SEC.

 

[jakez4ut]

Oh, we also saw in year one that Jones had no clue concerning the make up or talent required in a coaching staff to win in the SEC.

i think that's one thing we can see that's definitely a departure from what we've seen with the past two hires.

 

[jakez4ut]

Great coaches, coach great. Yeah, cliché... but true. Great coaches make the most of what they have. They do it in the first year. They do it in the 10th year. It is part of their make up and skill set. The exception would be a cupboard bare of talent or a team with significant discipline issues. Neither is the case at UT.

UGA had issues and holes. Then lost their RB's. Even so they were 5 points away from being an 11 win team. They took Jones' overwhelmingly superior talented team to a hail mary. Only once did the score get anything like out of hand (Ole Miss)... and that game wasn't completely uncompetitive.


Bama had significant discipline issues requiring Saban to tell a lot of guys to not come back. Even with the turmoil... they didn't lose a single game by more than a TD. You could look and see that minor tweaks and some talent help would fix it. The obvious bad loss was ULM. But that has proven to be just one of those statistical anomalies over time.



You may have to interpret a little more... but you can tell almost EVERYTHING from year one.

With Jones, we can see that he was going to have some success recruiting at least according to the rankings. We could tell he was going to have personal energy and try to convey it to the team through clichés and slogans. We knew he was going to impose some strict disciplines for things like meetings and other non-football activities with the hope those habits would translate to the team. We knew that he valued "character"... even in light of some of the revelations this fall concerning his.

We knew that he was not adaptable but believed in his "system"... and would be determined to pound any round peg through that square hole. (Ultimately, he didn't recruit well to his own system).

Most importantly... we had every reason to know that he was going to have problems on game day. He overestimated opponents and underestimated his own team. He had a virtual phobia against trusting his players to make the plays to win games... he would call it "managing the game". He was never a very good "manager". He was stubborn and inflexible. He didn't adapt well. He didn't adjust effectively.

Five of Jones 7 losses were by 14 points or more. Four... UT looked like homecoming fodder. The roster had more talent than that. The average margin of loss was 23 points. With a bowl on the line... Jones was unable to beat a Vandy team that was inferior in talent.

There were a few indications that he could be abusive behind the scenes. Helm and Hendrix (maybe others) left because of it. Fans of course blamed the players... but ultimately this played into Jones losing respect and control of the program. He was a "bully" and people finally got enough.


If you were willing to see, signs of him not being the right guy were present in year one. Too many chose to delude themselves. That can't be fixed... but folks don't have to do it again with Pruitt or anyone who follows.

there's a lot here i agree with, but i think it also goes to pointing out what some might actually be LOOKING for when forming an opinion on a particular coach.

not to go all in on a post butch re hash, all those things you listed about indicators of not being great, in 2013, he did play GA as tough as anyone and was a fumble away from a HUGE win. and then beat USCe. so there were some other signs that showed he just might have been what we hoped he could be.

hindsight being 20/20, what 2013 really showed us was that was how it was going to be...up...and....down. and that continued thru out his career here.

i think with Pruitt and co, there are still depth issues on this roster that will rear their ugly head. eye test will be important with this team, cause like you, i do think you can "tell", even in a loss. just like that 2013 GA game and USCe game.

the trick...avoiding that 2013 Vandy game that leaves doubt.:thumbsup:

 

[sjt18]

Unbelievable how bought in most of you are. Great for you. I think whoever they hired would be an improvement in X & Os

No. UT could have hired Miles. Leach's system has been described as basically the same small set of plays with reads within the plays. That gets a team to a point... but even in the Pac12 it doesn't beat teams that can play great pressure man and/or have great pass rushers.

Of the guys that sounded like they'd reached a serious point... my preference would have been Brohm or Mullen. But a lot of the names mentioned would have been "good" on paper but disastrous in reality.

but you all are so easy to manipulate. Early in the search there was no way a coordinator needed to be heading the football team at TENN. Any coach could recruit at TENN with all it has to offer. Money was not an object, just offer $10M a year. CBJ could recruit but couldn't develop. We have talent for the next coach.

$10M wasn't mentioned of anyone but Gruden. Gruden for whatever reason played then screwed UT. He could have told Currie to look elsewhere from the start. He could have clearly stated that he was not going to be a candidate.

UT does have talent. UT fans SHOULD be about one thing... finding the guy who can win regardless of whether they're a successful coordinator or successful HC. UT did not need a guy who had had a show cause and a reputation for bad interpersonal relationships. UT didn't need a coach fired for consistently underachieving his talent. UT did not need a marginal ACC coach.

Kiffin is a different and interesting case but there are lots of boosters who would never allow him.

That pretty much leaves you with championship coordinators or up and comers like Brohm, Frost, et al.

Now we hire a coordinator from Bama and brag about how great he can recruit. We need all of the coaches he is hiring because they can recruit. We are paying less than $4M a year. Now we have low expectations because Jones 4* recruit were not the same type as Pruitt recruits. We have no talent on the roster so don't expect much next year. The excitement reminds me of the last 2 hires after the press conferences. This fan base needs a winner soooo bad, they will accept any hope just because it's a change. I hope Pruitt absolutely is a big winner but I am waiting before making any predictions.

He gets the same chance from me that Jones did when he started. He writes his own story from here. I always choose to have hope vs optimism/pessimism. I think that allows me to be more objective as a guy proves himself. I recommend the same for everyone. Optimism causes you to ignore the negative. Pessimism causes you to ignore the positive. Neither is "realistic" or objective.

 

[sjt18]

there's a lot here i agree with, but i think it also goes to pointing out what some might actually be LOOKING for when forming an opinion on a particular coach.

not to go all in on a post butch re hash, all those things you listed about indicators of not being great, in 2013, he did play GA as tough as anyone and was a fumble away from a HUGE win. and then beat USCe. so there were some other signs that showed he just might have been what we hoped he could be.

hindsight being 20/20, what 2013 really showed us was that was how it was going to be...up...and....down. and that continued thru out his career here.

i think with Pruitt and co, there are still depth issues on this roster that will rear their ugly head. eye test will be important with this team, cause like you, i do think you can "tell", even in a loss. just like that 2013 GA game and USCe game.

the trick...avoiding that 2013 Vandy game that leaves doubt.:thumbsup:

I would just point out that Richt's UGA teams had a habit of playing down to competition... and IMO... UT actually had more player talent than USCe that year.

Spurrier is the classic example of "Great coaches, coach great". He took a few star players and a bunch of average or wrose players... and won over 10 games.

Those games simply didn't balance out against the other.

UGA actually pointed out another weakness.... not being able to win close games decided at the end.

 

[jakez4ut]

just imagine how different CBJ would have been viewed had he either won that GA game in 13, or that Vandy game, or both.... just to go to a bowl that first year.

or had we beat FL in 14 and 15? OU in 15? USCe/Vandy 16? aTm 16? Bama 15?

over the course of 5 years, those are 8 games that could have changed the whole narrative for him. all of these games, we had an opportunity to win.

Pruitt will likely have similar opportunities over the next couple of years. we'll see how it works out, but it can literally come down to 1 or 2 games a season that kinda define how your tenure is going to be defined. and that doesn't mean you have to win 10 or 11 games every time out. you just can't lose all but 3 (15, 16, GA, 16 FL) of the meaningful games you play, that can define seasons.

 

[jakez4ut]

I would just point out that Richt's UGA teams had a habit of playing down to competition... and IMO... UT actually had more player talent than USCe that year.

Spurrier is the classic example of "Great coaches, coach great". He took a few star players and a bunch of average or wrose players... and won over 10 games.

Those games simply didn't balance out against the other.

UGA actually pointed out another weakness.... not being able to win close games decided at the end.

i dunno that i'd say we were more talented that USCe that year. that was a quality win. and it was a close game. the problem with Butch is that every game of meaning was close, and we were always walking a fine line between w/l, and he didn't have the game day acumen to win more of those in this league.

don't disagree about richt, but we played up to the competition that day against UGA. and i still say, that game may have been the best game CBJ ever coached here.

and we lost, so that should tell you a lot.......lol:

 

[sjt18]

just imagine how different CBJ would have been viewed had he either won that GA game in 13, or that Vandy game, or both.... just to go to a bowl that first year.

or had we beat FL in 14 and 15? OU in 15? USCe/Vandy 16? aTm 16? Bama 15?

over the course of 5 years, those are 8 games that could have changed the whole narrative for him. all of these games, we had an opportunity to win.

Huge difference... but he would have had to have been a different coach to do that. The record is a reflection of him as a coach.

Pruitt will likely have similar opportunities over the next couple of years. we'll see how it works out, but it can literally come down to 1 or 2 games a season that kinda define how your tenure is going to be defined. and that doesn't mean you have to win 10 or 11 games every time out. you just can't lose all but 3 (15, 16, GA, 16 FL) of the meaningful games you play, that can define seasons.

True...is true.

And at the risk of being accused of accepting "moral victories"... it matters A LOT how well teams play in losses and especially early in a coach's tenure. That matters as much or maybe more than whether he wins once he's built talent. It proves he can improvise. It proves he can coach.