Samford at Florida

[Volunteer_Kirby]

“Huge win???” Did you forget the blue font?

 

[OklahomaDawg]

Need those ice cold takes of Mullen being a better coach than Kirby.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Don’t bet on that.

I never bet on anything with a brain, but they are beatable.

 

[Dudleys87]

Need those ice cold takes of Mullen being a better coach than Kirby.

Are you really coaching if you’ve got a room full of guys and all you have to say is go do your job?

Mullen isn’t great but let’s not pretend like Kirby has a hard job.

 

[volfanhill]

Are you really coaching if you’ve got a room full of guys and all you have to say is go do your job?

Mullen isn’t great but let’s not pretend like Kirby has a hard job.

That's an interesting distinction. He clearly knows how to build a program. You would think the other Saban disciples would have taken notes on that part. Looks like that's the most important part.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

That's an interesting distinction. He clearly knows how to build a program. You would think the other Saban disciples would have taken notes on that part. Looks like that's the most important part.

It is an important distinction, though.

People often hail as Nick Saban as the 'greatest coach in history.' He's really not the greatest "coach" per se. He flopped in the NFL where you do have to outscheme your opponents every week.

He's the greatest recruiter of all-time. And Kirby is great at it, too. Albeit, Kirby has the easiest recruiting job in the country; any idiot can recruit at Georgia. But Saban and Kirby are great at being college football CEOs; and they are more CEOs than coaches in a sense.

But guys like Kirby and Saban would almost certainly lose a lot of games if there was anything close to roster parity, like there is in the NFL. Heupel's a much better game day coach than either of them, but unless he can start recruiting near their level, it won't matter. That said, I'm hoping Heupel's on-field success makes recruiting a lot easier.

 

[05_never_again]

It is an important distinction, though.

People often hail as Nick Saban as the 'greatest coach in history.' He's really not the greatest "coach" per se. He flopped in the NFL where you do have to outscheme your opponents every week.

He's the greatest recruiter of all-time. And Kirby is great at it, too. Albeit, Kirby has the easiest recruiting job in the country; any idiot can recruit at Georgia. But Saban and Kirby are great at being college football CEOs; and they are more CEOs than coaches in a sense.

But guys like Kirby and Saban would almost certainly lose a lot of games if there was anything close to roster parity, like there is in the NFL. Heupel's a much better game day coach than either of them, but unless he can start recruiting near their level, it won't matter. That said, I'm hoping Heupel's on-field success makes recruiting a lot easier.

Saban is the greatest recruiter and coaching staff assembler of all time, which is like 95% of the job in college football. Saying he isn't the greatest "coach" of all time because he struggled in the NFL with out-scheming people is like saying a Ferrari isn't a great car because you can't tow a boat with it. You aren't really judging it on a relevant metric.

They are two totally different skill sets - there are plenty of NFL coaches who would come into college and look like fools too.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

Saying he isn't the greatest "coach" of all time because he struggled in the NFL with out-scheming people is like saying a Ferrari isn't a great car because you can't tow a boat with it. You aren't really judging it on a relevant metric..

No, it's recognizing that there are two completely different meanings to the word "coach" and that people very frequently conflate the two.

I often hear that it's laughable that someone like Bill Snyder could've "outcoached" Saban. Which is to say, people mistakenly think Saban is the greatest "game day coach" of all-time. He's not. He's not even close. Snyder, with an equivalent roster, would beat Saban more times than not. So would Heupel. So would Spurrier. So would Leach.

In the context of a CEO-style college football "coach", sure, Saban's the greatest of all-time. No argument there. But let's be honest ... in NFL terms, that makes him the greatest GM of all-time; not the greatest coach. The two roles are intermingled in college football. Saban is the greatest GM or the greatest combo of the two.

But if you use "coach" in the traditional sense of the word, someone who develops the players and coaches them on the field, he's not the greatest coach at all. Easily several dozen college "coaches" in the history of the game who are better at "coaching" than Saban.

Saban's a great CEO. A great GM. And these skills are more important than "coaching" at the highest levels of college football. If he coached at Kent State (his alma-mater) for his entire career, he may be viewed as nothing more than an above-average coach.

He's a good "coach" who hires great coaches.

 

[05_never_again]

No, it's recognizing that there are two completely different meanings to the word "coach" and that people very frequently conflate the two.

I often hear that it's laughable that someone like Bill Snyder could've "outcoached" Saban. Which is to say, people mistakenly think Saban is the greatest "game day coach" of all-time. He's not. He's not even close. Snyder, with an equivalent roster, would beat Saban more times than not. So would Heupel. So would Spurrier. So would Leach.

In the context of a CEO-style college football "coach", sure, Saban's the greatest of all-time. No argument there. But let's be honest ... in NFL terms, that makes him the greatest GM of all-time; not the greatest coach. The two roles are intermingled in college football. Saban is the greatest GM or the greatest combo of the two.

But if you use "coach" in the traditional sense of the word, he's not the greatest coach at all. Easily several dozen college "coaches" in the history of the game who are better at "coaching" than Saban.

Saban's a great CEO. A great GM. He's a good "coach" who hires great coaches.

Why do "NFL terms" matter? Last I checked, Saban is a college coach. Would you evaluate Belichick in a college football context?

You seem to be defining "coach" in an overly narrow way so that it buttresses your argument. Developing game plans and calling plays are specific responsibilities associated with the job, not the entire job. If you want to argue that Saban isn't the best schemer, play caller, or game planner of all time, you are probably correct. But so what? I would argue that the majority of NFL HCs are not the most technically capable people on their own staffs either. They have OCs and DCs that are probably more familiar with the ins and outs of game plays and play calling. In another context, I bet you that Tim Cook is not the most technically knowledgable person at Apple even though he is the CEO. Does that matter?

The job of a head coach at either the college or NFL level is not to be a technical expert.

Saban is in a managerial/leadership position that is ultimately responsible for the entire program. Does it matter that he personally isn't the greatest play caller? Shouldn't it be more important whether or not he hires guys who are good play callers, because ultimately that is his job?

 

[OklahomaDawg]

No, it's recognizing that there are two completely different meanings to the word "coach" and that people very frequently conflate the two.

I often hear that it's laughable that someone like Bill Snyder could've "outcoached" Saban. Which is to say, people mistakenly think Saban is the greatest "game day coach" of all-time. He's not. He's not even close. Snyder, with an equivalent roster, would beat Saban more times than not. So would Heupel. So would Spurrier. So would Leach.

In the context of a CEO-style college football "coach", sure, Saban's the greatest of all-time. No argument there. But let's be honest ... in NFL terms, that makes him the greatest GM of all-time; not the greatest coach. The two roles are intermingled in college football. Saban is the greatest GM or the greatest combo of the two.

But if you use "coach" in the traditional sense of the word, someone who develops the players and coaches them on the field, he's not the greatest coach at all. Easily several dozen college "coaches" in the history of the game who are better at "coaching" than Saban.

Saban's a great CEO. A great GM. And these skills are more important than "coaching" at the highest levels of college football. If he coached at Kent State (his alma-mater) for his entire career, he may be viewed as nothing more than an above-average coach.

He's a good "coach" who hires great coaches.

Agree with your point on Snyder. He is the best coach of all-time, in my opinion. He took over a program that went winless for 2.5 years before he got there and had them #1 less than a decade later. I’ve been to Manhattan many times. It’s hard to recruit players out there.

And that could’ve been his MNC in 98.

6/7 years he won at least 11 games. Imagine Vandy doing that and there you go.

 

[VAVol85]

That guy is fast! Doesn’t matter what division he plays in.