Saw this Obama Oil Response Chronology...

[MG1968]

I'm referring to the evacuation of New Orleans. Are you actually going to sit there and claim that it's Bush's fault that the people in that nursing home died in their beds?

Kathleen Blanco, as governor of the state, had the authority to mobilize the National Guard. She didn't. Ray Nagin, as mayor of New Orleans, had the authority to use those hundreds of school buses to help evacuate poor residents, he didn't.

You piss and moan about Bush and the Patriot Act being a violation of civil liberties. What would you have said if Big Government had swooped in on Louisiana and taken over before the hurricane hit and forced the evacuation and placed armed federal troops on every street corner to keep law and order (ie shooting looters)?

as with most things in life, there's a chain of command and the top of the chain is ALWAYS going to be the slowest to react.

 

[rjd970]

I'm referring to the evacuation of New Orleans. 1. Are you actually going to sit there and claim that it's Bush's fault that the people in that nursing home died in their beds?

Kathleen Blanco, as governor of the state, had the authority to mobilize the National Guard. She didn't. Ray Nagin, as mayor of New Orleans, had the authority to use those hundreds of school buses to help evacuate poor residents, he didn't.

2. You piss and moan about Bush and the Patriot Act being a violation of civil liberties. What would you have said if Big Government had swooped in on Louisiana and taken over before the hurricane hit and 3. forced the evacuation and placed armed federal troops on every street corner to keep law and order (ie shooting looters)?

as with most things in life, there's a chain of command and the top of the chain is ALWAYS going to be the slowest to react.

1. No more than you are going to sit there and say dead pelicans and dirty beaches are Obama's fault.

2. That is almost too silly to even respond to.

3. Isn't that what basically happened anyway after the fact?

All I am saying is this defense of Bush and blame on Obama doesn't even sniff of being objective in the least.

 

[MG1968]

I'm not saying they're Obama's fault. However, taking over a month to get serious is...serious, don't you think?

besides, Obama has already channeled his inner Truman when he declared that "the buck stops with me."

 

[rjd970]

I'm not saying they're Obama's fault. However, taking over a month to get serious is...serious, don't you think?

besides, Obama has already channeled his inner Truman when he declared that "the buck stops with me."

Absolutely. I'm just saying let's not defend Bush's handling of Katrina in the same breath.

 

[KentheOrange]

Everyone and their mother knew the hurricane was going to hit, and it was going to be bad a full week before it happened. Period. The national guard and coast guard were the only ones with the resources and capabilities to deal with it. The levees breaking was a real possibility and everybody was screaming this for a week. I'm not too familiar with Gustav, but I don't think the levees failed like with Katrina...certainly not on the same magnitude. Placing blame squarely on the shoulders of local government for lack of leadership is bogus.

Besides, what I referring to is Bush's complete lack of interest in it until it got bad. Just the same as Obama with this oil spill. The hurricane hit fast and hard, the oil spill is a long process and nobody will know the final proprotion of disaster until it is all over. Considering this, both timelines by Bush and Obama should be weighted equally. Both of which, have handled these respective disasters inadequately.

From my POV, arguing that Katrina faults shouldn't have fallen on the federal government and the oil spill should is disengenious, at best. Federal leadership failed in both instances.

Your POV is flawed. The Feds cannot come in until requested by the State. Local leadership was inept.

You are correct concerning the oil spill.

 

[rjd970]

Your POV is flawed. The Feds cannot come in until requested by the State. Local leadership was inept.

You are correct concerning the oil spill.

When did LA request assistance by the Feds then? IMO however long it took them, subtract that from Obama's timeline and tell the Obama blame crowd to STFU. From my understanding, the latest out of LA governement is they don't want them there anyway. Nothing was stopping LA from requesting Fed assistance as soon as the leak started to protect their shorelines.

I am certainly no Obama supporter, but I think he is legitimately getting a bad rap on this one, but at the same time we shouldn't forget his ineptness for his handling. He should be treated no different than Bush was with Katrina IMO. Not that I expect honesty in a political forum when asking a hypothetical, but what if the government had come in the first day the leak started? People on here would be crying intrusion of government in private matters. And furthermore, the government couldn't have done anymore than BP is doing now and Obama would get the blame for making it worse. It would be Obama getting the heat instead of the BP CEO.

This is political silly season with this catastrophe. Either party can spin it anyway they like no matter what course of action Obama was to take. And I still contend in this regard it is no different than the heat Bush took from the left and defense from the right with Katrina. Nobody is denying Obama needs to take some responsibility with his handling, but just like with Bush...what the hell is he supposed to do?

 

[KentheOrange]

There is nothing the government could do to stop the flow, and if any other company had the expertise to stop the flow it would have happened by now.

The thing I blame Obama for is his usual non decision making (ie, trying to vote present) mode in a crisis. Knowing that the oil was flowing and was localized 50 miles offshore he could have started putting the Coast Guard and Navy in position to minimize the spread of the oil. He could fast track the permits to build berms to stop the oil, or at least it slow down as it started approaching the marshes in LA. The EPA wanted to study that solution to the point that it was too late to be effective. The federal government is in charge of off shore operations. No state is involved so no state permission or request is required.

In my opinion Obama is not getting the rap on this he deserves.

 

[volinbham]

All I am saying is this defense of Bush and blame on Obama doesn't even sniff of being objective in the least.

I agree in general.

To me the biggest difference is that Bush was castigated while the criticism of Obama has been pretty limited and tame by comparison.

That difference accounts for some of the defense of Bush. He took to much heat and to this point Obama may not be getting enough.

 

[volinbham]

Another difference is BP vs Mother Nature. You can't really blame Mother Nature (and we know it's not nice to fool her). In this case though, most of the anger (rightly so) is aimed at BP so Obama is getting a bit of a pass. He's also piling on BP to shift attention away from his response.

 

[Daddy Gee]

The thing I blame Obama for is his usual non decision making (ie, trying to vote present) mode in a crisis. Knowing that the oil was flowing and was localized 50 miles offshore he could have started putting the Coast Guard and Navy in position to minimize the spread of the oil. He could fast track the permits to build berms to stop the oil, or at least it slow down as it started approaching the marshes in LA. The EPA wanted to study that solution to the point that it was too late to be effective.

yep ...... try to imagine him making even bigger decisions, i.e. all-out war, financial collapse, etc. ...... just scary ....

 

[IPorange]

Another difference is BP vs Mother Nature. You can't really blame Mother Nature (and we know it's not nice to fool her). In this case though, most of the anger (rightly so) is aimed at BP so Obama is getting a bit of a pass. He's also piling on BP to shift attention away from his response.

Mother Nature? Not so sure. Inadequate levies.

 

[volinbham]

Mother Nature? Not so sure. Inadequate levies.

The disaster was natural - the results were worse due to infrastructure problems (levees).

 

[rjd970]

I agree in general.

To me the biggest difference is that Bush was castigated while the criticism of Obama has been pretty limited and tame by comparison.

That difference accounts for some of the defense of Bush. He took to much heat and to this point Obama may not be getting enough.

This.

I say it is a fair statement that Bush took more heat for Katrina than Obama is taking for this right now. Part of this is due to Obama liberalism and ties to green wackos granting him a sense of validation that this "oil is all bad all the time" POV has merit. The other big difference here is the racism factor. How many times did we hear Bush didn't care about the poor underclass of New Orleans and if this were to happen in white suburbia the catastrophe wouldn't have been near as bad?

Politics fly everywhere when disasters like this strike. Both sides jump on the opportunity to exploit weaknesses of who is in charge. The efforts of all our elected officials shouldn't focused on defeating each other, it should be on helping residents and the economies of the gulf coast who were decimated by a biblical hurricane and now an oil slick. You know, do the job they were elected to do.

I don't know man, the more I spend on this forum the more I realize I am an idealist that likes to gripe about the reality of the situation we are all in.

 

[lawgator1]

Also, every day he ate food and brushed his teeth and slept.

Freakin' traitor!

 

[lawgator1]

This.

I say it is a fair statement that Bush took more heat for Katrina than Obama is taking for this right now. Part of this is due to Obama liberalism and ties to green wackos granting him a sense of validation that this "oil is all bad all the time" POV has merit. The other big difference here is the racism factor. How many times did we hear Bush didn't care about the poor underclass of New Orleans and if this were to happen in white suburbia the catastrophe wouldn't have been near as bad?

Politics fly everywhere when disasters like this strike. Both sides jump on the opportunity to exploit weaknesses of who is in charge. The efforts of all our elected officials shouldn't focused on defeating each other, it should be on helping residents and the economies of the gulf coast who were decimated by a biblical hurricane and now an oil slick. You know, do the job they were elected to do.

I don't know man, the more I spend on this forum the more I realize I am an idealist that likes to gripe about the reality of the situation we are all in.

Laughable since you are ignoring the enormous differences between the two situations.

As I've said before, I thought Bush took way too much criticism over the Katrina response. It was definitely politicized.

But, Bush had already managed to gain for himself an impression that he was insensitive and out of touch. It was a hop, skip, and a jump from the preexisting image he had to the claim based on Katrina that he simply didn't care at all. (An absurd conclusion, but politically easy to understand).

Obama has the "luxury," if you will, of 1) dealing with a situation where no one can articulate really any significant thing he could do differently and 2) at least some remaining cache that he's concerned about people.

 

[volinbham]

Some other differences:

1) Katrina was the first evidence of the Federal govt's inability.

2) The Katrina impact was immediate; people were in deep distress and peril.

3) The impact was immediately viewable to the populace.

In this case, the impact is only starting to be seen. The more "brown pelicans" we see, the more displaced workers, the more we see destroyed beaches, the more we see businesses closing, further real estate value hits --- the more people will be frustrated at the inability of the Fed and Obama.

Just saw the guy in charge talk about the 17K plus people on the job, the over 2k boats (including Navy and Coast Guard). The burning question is why did it take nearly 2 months to mobilize?

 

[rjd970]

Laughable since you are ignoring the enormous differences between the two situations.

As I've said before, I thought Bush took way too much criticism over the Katrina response. It was definitely politicized.

But, Bush had already managed to gain for himself an impression that he was insensitive and out of touch. It was a hop, skip, and a jump from the preexisting image he had to the claim based on Katrina that he simply didn't care at all. (An absurd conclusion, but politically easy to understand).

Obama has the "luxury," if you will, of 1) dealing with a situation where no one can articulate really any significant thing he could do differently and 2) at least some remaining cache that he's concerned about people.

But see, this is where are the politics and perception play. You don't really believe Bush didn't care about the plight of gulf coast residents do you? At least, he didn't care anymore than Obama does. It is just for political reasons, Obama is seen as caring more. I still contend that as an overall picture... the bottom up economics, race, and enviromental sensitivity of the left contribute to this perception. The bottom line is both did not handle the response effectively, but Obama is getting a pass. The eventual outcome extrapolated out according to your statements is if Obama was in charge during Katrina he would have got the same ridicule of not caring about the poor and underpriviledged that Bush got....which is beyond absurd.

 

[lawgator1]

But see, this is where are the politics and perception play. You don't really believe Bush didn't care about the plight of gulf coast residents do you? At least, he didn't care anymore than Obama does. It is just for political reasons, Obama is seen as caring more. I still contend that as an overall picture... the bottom up economics, race, and enviromental sensitivity of the left contribute to this perception. The bottom line is both did not handle the response effectively, but Obama is getting a pass. The eventual outcome extrapolated out according to your statements is if Obama was in charge during Katrina he would have got the same ridicule of not caring about the poor and underpriviledged that Bush got....which is beyond absurd.

I think Bush cared, yes, but I don't think he felt a sense of urgency about it, and in fact it almost felt like there was a brief period of a few days, say about 2-3 days after the storm, where there was almost an intransigence on the part of the Bush WH to get moving on it. It was 95 % purely the impression that he had given up to that point, matched with as I say a period of reluctance to get drawn into it afterwards.

And then to make matter worse, once he did get involved, he came across as totally uncomfortable with it.

In fact -- and I'd be curious as to your and others' point of view on this -- Bush's biggest foible was that he looked uncomfortable in almost every single thing he did. He handled 9/11 well -- I gave credit then and still do. But other than that, he always looked like a fish out of water to me. Always awkward. Never comfortable with all eyes on him.

 

[BigPapaVol]

When Bush transitioned to the stage where he believed people wanted him making decisions, rather than his very capable administration (albeit heavily idealogical), he lost his way. Never having any mechanism to say no to the clown was another problem.

I think it's hard to pin either president with the "doesn't care" label. Neither is a leader and neither had any idea what to do.

 

[emainvol]

That's a pretty bad photoshop, but slightly better than a similar one involving Bush.

 

[rjd970]

When Bush transitioned to the stage where he believed people wanted him making decisions, rather than his very capable administration (albeit heavily idealogical), he lost his way. Never having any mechanism to say no to the clown was another problem.

I think it's hard to pin either president with the "doesn't care" label. Neither is a leader and neither had any idea what to do.

:good!:

 

[gsvol]

His full attention has been on the Golf err umm Gulf.

Bozo has been coaching Tiger on public relations, Tiger has been trying to get Bozo to quit cheating on the score card.

He Knew….He Freaking Knew And He Did Nothing [Reader Post]

The real disgrace here is why, if he really did know right away that this was the oil equivalent of an asteroid strike, he didn’t scramble some sort of all-hands-on-deck emergency operation to protect the coastline.

Remember, Jindal reportedly requested five million feet of hard boom back on May 2, long after Obama (according to Wolffe) knew about the magnitude of the disaster. By May 24, not even 800,000 feet had arrived. What happened?

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/Bring-The-Supertanker

Gulf Spill Solution Could be Supertankers, BP Won't Listen | Inhabitat - Green Design Will Save the World

Hofmeister (former president of Shell) and Pozzi have been trying to get in touch with BP executives and persons in the Obama administration to present their genius idea to those in charge of the cleanup.

They’ve been repeatedly turned away, and, once, a lawsuit was even threatened. Hofmeister thinks BP is turning a blind eye to their solution because they don’t want to tie up their supertankers in the cleanup efforts.

Sixty years ago, BP was called the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

Oily Politics Grease the Wheels of Control

Perhaps this background provides some clues about Obama's delayed and incompetent reaction to the Gulf oil eruption and the direction of America's future energy policies.

 

[MUR73]

I may have been too critical on Barry. Maybe he has been playing all this golf preparing to "plug that damn hole " one titlest at a time..... Cosmo Kramer style.

 

[Heebs]

The sea was angry that day my friends...like an old man trying to return soup at a deli.

 

[Daddy Gee]

was it a titleist?