Science and Religion: Creationism/Evolution Thread

#201
#201
turambar85 said:
The only differences between micro and macro evolution are time and geological barriers that prevent interbreeding. There isn't a single other logical difference. However, you think there is. So. Enlighten me. What legitimate point other than the two mentions differentiates between micro and macroevolution in a meaningful way?
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That you can't prove that it happened, and science is about proof. You believe what you can prove.
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#202
#202
turambar85 said:
The only thing that marks speciation is custom and convention after the fact, or breeding populations during the time. It is a fuzzy concept that shouldn't be used as a black and white on off switch.

What do you mean "see species at various stages of evolution"? No species is on its way to becoming something else. No animal is half-formed as if there were some teleology directing its progress. Every animal is a fully-formed, adapted entity. You are seeing species at "various stages" all the time.
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i thought evolution was a constant force? So an entire species changed at the same time with a random mutation?
 
#203
#203
turambar85 said:
The only thing that marks speciation is custom and convention after the fact, or breeding populations during the time. It is a fuzzy concept that shouldn't be used as a black and white on off switch.

What do you mean "see species at various stages of evolution"? No species is on its way to becoming something else. No animal is half-formed as if there were some teleology directing its progress. Every animal is a fully-formed, adapted entity. You are seeing species at "various stages" all the time.
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Now I'm completely confused
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#204
#204
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
also another question, if this is the case, wouldnt species be constantly changing, so wouldnt we see species at various stages of evolution?
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What would you like to see? A lungfish? a lobed fish? Land crabs? Apes that no longer live in trees? Bacteria that no longer respond to antibiotics?

How do creationists account for hybridization of some plant and animal species?
 
#205
#205
ridethelightening said:
That you can't prove that it happened, and science is about proof. You believe what you can prove.
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Science, for the ... oh, 10th time, does not deal in proof. You believe what the evidence points to, and here the evidence points.

But, come on. Have a spine. Answer the question. I just told you that macro and micro are the same thing in type and nature. You say micro happens, but macro is impossible. Enlighten me. Step up to the plate. I'm calling your number.
 
#206
#206
IPorange said:
What would you like to see? A lungfish? a lobed fish? Land crabs? Apes that no longer live in trees? Bacteria that no longer respond to antibiotics?

How do creationists account for hybridization of some plant and animal species?
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well, with the exeption of Gary Busey, there is no direct inbetween a monkey and a man, theres no link. If it is an ongoing process there should be "animal x" at various stages of its evolution

who is to say that it is not part of the process that was put into place by the creator?
 
#207
#207
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
i thought evolution was a constant force? So an entire species changed at the same time with a random mutation?
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He's saying "species" is a human term. Organisms within a population are much more in flux than what they appear in the snap shot of our lives, or even human existence. You can't really be "between" species. You're always a species. At a certain point, there are enough changes to justify calling a population something new. But it was always "something."
 
#208
#208
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
i thought evolution was a constant force? So an entire species changed at the same time with a random mutation?
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Now, if that were what I said you might have a point. Evolution is the result. Mutations are consistent, and natural selection is constantly acting. Speciation, though, is post hoc and rare. There is too much interbreeding, and even wildly different organisms can interbreed.

One more time. Speciation is about geographical isolation where interbreeding cannot happen, and where a barrage of mutations lead to organisms that can't, or don't want to, interbreed.
 
#209
#209
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
well, with the exeption of Gary Busey, there is no direct inbetween a monkey and a man, theres no link. If it is an ongoing process there should be "animal x" at various stages of its evolution

who is to say that it is not part of the process that was put into place by the creator?
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What about all of the hominid fossils that have been found?
 
#210
#210
IPorange said:
Consider learning about the Big Bang Theory and evolution, before commenting on it. Evolution is an ongoing, never-ending biological process. The "Big Bang" may have happened/will happen an infinite amount of times. I don't know where you cam up with "will never happen again."
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But I thought evolution could be traced all the way back to the sole existence of atoms?
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#211
#211
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
well, with the exeption of Gary Busey, there is no direct inbetween a monkey and a man, theres no link. If it is an ongoing process there should be "animal x" at various stages of its evolution

who is to say that it is not part of the process that was put into place by the creator?
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Wait, I just noticed you are double-dipping. Is your position that there is not any evidence for evolution, or that it is a process put there by a creator?

You can't have it both ways.
 
#213
#213
ridethelightening said:
But I thought evolution could be traced all the way back to the sole existence of atoms?
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Why can't you guys get it that the Big Bang (cosmology) and evolution (the origin of species, and hell we've thrown biogenesis in there too even though that's a stretch) are totally separate?

Evolution has nothing to do with the atoms.
 
#214
#214
This thread beautifully shows the problem. Creationists don't have any argument other than the "god of the gaps" BS. They cannot think of a single positive argument. They can't answer a single question. They always have to be on the attack, looking for any slip or gap that they can "wedge" their doctrine into. 12 pages, and only evolution has seen arguments on its behalf. I have even explicitly asked simple questions multiple times and either been ignored, or said to be devious and full of gobbledygook....

This is why debating creationists is bad for evolutionary biologists. The same disingenuous anti-academic ploy is used the entire time, every time. They never have to answer anything, and anything not currently known by science proves god did it.
 
#215
#215
In reality this should thread should be the real "The Topic that Will Never Die".
 
#216
#216
turambar85 said:
Science, for the ... oh, 10th time, does not deal in proof. You believe what the evidence points to, and here the evidence points.
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But how evidence is interpreted is bounded by what we theorize something to be. What we count as evidence of one theoretically defined phenomenon could also be better evidence of another (and perhaps the "true") phenomenon but it may be outside of our theoretical imagination.

Science is a process that seeks to bring objectivity but it is never completely objective due to human limitations.
 
#217
#217
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
yah, but where are the hominids?
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Extinct. The populations diverged, the ones that were better adapted made it.

It's like saying "where are the 30 ft monitor lizards of Australia?" The Aboriginals got rid of them all. But there smaller cousins, who are more equipped to hide, and are more mobile are still around.
 
#218
#218
IPorange said:
There is a lot of chaos in the universe that doesn't lend itself to creation. Seems like an awful waste of space, too.
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Please give us some examples of the chaos you see in the universe and why it doesn't lend itself to the idea of creation.

As for the last sentence it seems to me you are making some rather large assumptions given what little we know about the many planetary bodies in the universe, not to mention those in our own solar system.
 
#219
#219
turambar85 said:
This thread beautifully shows the problem. Creationists don't have any argument other than the "god of the gaps" BS. They cannot think of a single positive argument. They can't answer a single question. They always have to be on the attack, looking for any slip or gap that they can "wedge" their doctrine into. 12 pages, and only evolution has seen arguments on its behalf. I have even explicitly asked simple questions multiple times and either been ignored, or said to be devious and full of gobbledygook....
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Why worry about then?
 
#220
#220
turambar85 said:
This thread beautifully shows the problem. Creationists don't have any argument other than the "god of the gaps" BS. They cannot think of a single positive argument. They can't answer a single question. They always have to be on the attack, looking for any slip or gap that they can "wedge" their doctrine into. 12 pages, and only evolution has seen arguments on its behalf. I have even explicitly asked simple questions multiple times and either been ignored, or said to be devious and full of gobbledygook....

This is why debating creationists is bad for evolutionary biologists. The same disingenuous anti-academic ploy is used the entire time, every time. They never have to answer anything, and anything not currently known by science proves god did it.
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and all you evolutionists have done is tried to pass off theory as law, and then quote textbooks, but never explain anything to people that are questioning it. You have merely offered incertanties, and theory, which according to you, we have offered, and you say we are idiots
 
#221
#221
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
yah, but where are the hominids?
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You know, what does it even matter where they are now? They were definitely not human beings, but were capable of communication and cooperation, and are genetically our ancestors. We KNOW that. So why did you even ask that question? Answer: you are building a straw man.
 
#222
#222
BeecherVol said:
Why worry about then?
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I can't be satisfied. I hope that one day I will meet an intellectually honest creationist with whom I can have a good discussion. I love arguing, and I - as I've said - learn through debate. Hell, even with bad arguments I get some fun out of it.

Look, if I find honest creationists, I may learn something. If I find lazy creationists, then perhaps they can learn something. It isn't likely...but since its fun enough anyway, I can justify it.
 
#223
#223
turambar85 said:
Science, for the ... oh, 10th time, does not deal in proof. You believe what the evidence points to, and here the evidence points.

But, come on. Have a spine. Answer the question. I just told you that macro and micro are the same thing in type and nature. You say micro happens, but macro is impossible. Enlighten me. Step up to the plate. I'm calling your number.
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Yeah, because you have answered all of my questions.

Life is hard, everything has to eat to survive. The best will always win. The smartest will adapt to their surroundings. Man still exists on top, though. Nothing has evolved past us
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#225
#225
turambar85 said:
I can't be satisfied. I hope that one day I will meet an intellectually honest creationist with whom I can have a good discussion. I love arguing, and I - as I've said - learn through debate. Hell, even with bad arguments I get some fun out of it.

Look, if I find honest creationists, I may learn something. If I find lazy creationists, then perhaps they can learn something. It isn't likely...but since its fun enough anyway, I can justify it.
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I know.
 
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