Season update

[zjcvols]

It's why I prefer to learn from coaches who run a motion offense. Out of the motion you can do anything you want from drive and space to ball screens and post ups depending on your team's strengths in any given year. It's why I like Jay Wright so much among other reasons.

I like the motion offense. I'm just more of a pick-n-roll person. Any offense run right is hard to stop, but if you have the proper players and run it correctly, you can't stop the pick-n-roll. Especially if you have a guard who can hit a mid-range J.

 

[LawVol13]

Here is a brief overview of UT's offense, written by Jason Shay for those interested.

Nice find. I didn't realize that he just required the 4 man to be at the top of the key like that to begin the offense; he's obviously the trailer. Obviously, it's set up for your wings to sprint to a corner and your five man to sprint from block to block, and then you're offense is set. You rarely see them do much of diagrams 4-6. I can't ever remember seeing the 1 downscreen for the 5.

 

[LawVol13]

I like the motion offense. I'm just more of a pick-n-roll person. Any offense run right is hard to stop, but if you have the proper players and run it correctly, you can't stop the pick-n-roll. Especially if you have a guard who can hit a mid-range J.

Running a motion offense and picking and rolling are not mutually exclusive. You can ball screen in a motion offense.

 

[JZVOL]

Running a motion offense and picking and rolling are not mutually exclusive. You can ball screen in a motion offense.

I'm a broken record but that's what I love about the versatility of Jay Wright's 4 out 1 in motion. They look to score off post and rip, drive and space or pick and roll. You just change the emphasis based on personnel from year to year.

 

[LawVol13]

It's why I prefer to learn from coaches who run a motion offense. Out of the motion you can do anything you want from drive and space to ball screens and post ups depending on your team's strengths in any given year. It's why I like Jay Wright so much among other reasons.

I'm 100% with you on this. It's also more difficult to teach. It requires you to be able to teach your players how to react in circumstances. When to backscreen, when to backcut, when to downscreen, how to read the screen as a guard, etc. When it's run correctly, it's the closest to an unstoppable offense.

 

[LawVol13]

I'm a broken record but that's what I love about the versatility of Jay Wright's 4 out 1 in motion. They look to score off post and rip, drive and space or pick and roll. You just change the emphasis based on personnel from year to year.

His offense is a thing of beauty. Duke's motion offense is fantastic. Bob Knight's motion offenses were awesome. The most fundamentally sound teams run good motion offenses. That's just a fact.

 

[JZVOL]

I'm 100% with you on this. It's also more difficult to teach. It requires you to be able to teach your players how to react in circumstances. When to backscreen, when to backcut, when to downscreen, how to read the screen as a guard, etc. When it's run correctly, it's the closest to an unstoppable offense.

Exactly. That's why if you were to implement say Wright's offense without his breakdown offensive drills it will never work. It is much easier as a coach to install a flex pattern or run a few set plays than run a motion.

I've got some notes on Bob Knight from the '60's or '70's where he says the same thing basically (about why he runs a motion). It's hard to scout because there is no set pattern like the flex; it's all read and react and each trip down the court could be different.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

JZ,
I think Jay Wright is a great coach. I also think it is really possible that Villanova beats the stuffing out of UT in MSG which is precisely why I said that a 4-0 TN team could have players and fans very overconfident.

I do think that a savvy senior big getting under the skin of another big is not that hard and it does not have to be against a freshman (like Cousins last year). Fields is "hard" if that makes sense in the post in a way we have not seen since Duke Crews played for us.

 

[JZVOL]

His offense is a thing of beauty. Duke's motion offense is fantastic. Bob Knight's motion offenses were awesome. The most fundamentally sound teams run good motion offenses. That's just a fact.

True. Since I started coaching I really respect Coach K, but I still hate Duke.

 

[StepCross]

My question is, why have one set offense? Call some plays for Tobias on the block. Call double screens for Cam/Scotty. Call a pick-n-roll with Golden/Williams.

Everyone has set plays like that in their arsenal. But they only work once in a while...any coach worth a hoot in hades can defend a single play, if he has a chance to watch film and teach his team. You can't depend on plays like that, with one or two options only, for a whole season.

Jerry Green actually made fun of his last team publicly, if you'll recall. He said that the only way they could score was off of set plays, and they couldn't score off a continuity offense at all.

The point is, that's BAD. Obviously you can draw up special plays, but you want your team to be able to generate points out of an offensive framework with some freedom, and save the set plays for timeouts, inbounds plays, key situations in tournaments, etc.

 

[LawVol13]

Exactly. That's why if you were to implement say Wright's offense without his breakdown offensive drills it will never work. It is much easier as a coach to install a flex pattern or run a few set plays than run a motion.

I've got some notes on Bob Knight from the '60's or '70's where he says the same thing basically (about why he runs a motion). It's hard to scout because there is no set pattern like the flex; it's all read and react and each trip down the court could be different.

I think it just makes for a better team all around. If you run a good motion offense, you have good offensive instincts; therefore, your zone offense is usually better too. What we do offensively essentially turns our players into robots instead of allowing them to just react. That's why we're not effective in the halfcourt.

 

[LawVol13]

The point is, that's BAD. Obviously you can draw up special plays, but you want your team to be able to generate points out of an offensive framework with some freedom, and save the set plays for timeouts, inbounds plays, key situations in tournaments, etc.

The difference with Pearl is that we essentially never score out of the base "cutters" offense. It is always out of a set play or in transition. And you're right, that's not good.

 

[JZVOL]

JZ,
I think Jay Wright is a great coach. I also think it is really possible that Villanova beats the stuffing out of UT in MSG which is precisely why I said that a 4-0 TN team could have players and fans very overconfident.

I do think that a savvy senior big getting under the skin of another big is not that hard and it does not have to be against a freshman (like Cousins last year). Fields is "hard" if that makes sense in the post in a way we have not seen since Duke Crews played for us.

As I said I'm very biased toward the 'Nova staff for several reasons. It's not like UT can't beat 'Nova because they very much can. I just want to wait to see how some of our guys respond to a team like plays D like 'Nova.

Fields has proven himself at the mid-major level, but I want to see how he responds against a top BE team.

 

[StepCross]

Here is a brief overview of UT's offense, written by Jason Shay for those interested.

Thanks for that.

So it appears that I was right...the guard, when he gives up the ball to the opposite elbow, has the option of either down-screening as in the traditional flex, or staying out top.

The problem with down-screening is that your PG ends up in the baseline rotation for a while, with your center handling the ball up top. This might be unpalatable for some teams.

The problem with the option to stay out top is that if your guards keep choosing "stay out top," then you end up with a very boring and somewhat useless offense, as LawVol described.

I think that part of the offense could be altered so that it's not constantly two guys standing up at the top exchanging the ball.

I'm not crazy about that part of it.

 

[hatvol96]

The difference with Pearl is that we essentially never score out of the base "cutters" offense. It is always out of a set play or in transition. And you're right, that's not good.

The problem is that they don't even appear to be looking to score out of the base flex. They run the initial flex actions as if they're going through the motions at a mid morning shootaround. That's why they end up with 10 seconds on the shot clock freelancing so often.

 

[BigPapaVol]

The problem is that they don't even appear to be looking to score out of the base flex. They run the initial flex actions as if they're going through the motions at a mid morning shootaround. That's why they end up with 10 seconds on the shot clock freelancing so often.

Yes. Nobody is setting up screens or even using them. If the screens were decent and being used, the offense could be effective. As it stands, it's just a lazy rote drill that does more harm than good.
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[StepCross]

Running a motion offense and picking and rolling are not mutually exclusive. You can ball screen in a motion offense.

Absolutely. Indeed, there's a ballscreen option, 4 picking for 1, in Shay's essay.

Like Law, though, I don't remember seeing it much.

I'm trying to remember, though...have we had good ballscreen personnel in the last few years? I don't think it's a good fit for Maze, Hopson, Ramar...I'm trying to remember if we've had a scorer/distributor guard who could come off a screen with the ball and be a great dual threat.

Still not a great fit even for Melvin, I think. Our best bet this year for a ball screen might be a big guy like Brian or Fields picking for Tobias.

That's an option I'd throw in...if Tobias gets the ball on the elbow and the 3-cut isn't open, and Brian isn't open on the post up, then have melvin drift to the wing and let Brian set a pick for Tobias in the key area, see if they can make something happen.

 

[LawVol13]

The problem is that they don't even appear to be looking to score out of the base flex. They run the initial flex actions as if they're going through the motions at a mid morning shootaround. That's why they end up with 10 seconds on the shot clock freelancing so often.

Exactly. Its primary purpose seems to just be running clock until they set up some set play.

 

[StepCross]

It's hard to scout because there is no set pattern like the flex; it's all read and react and each trip down the court could be different.

I disagree that the flex is a set pattern. The flex, done right, is all read and react. NBA teams have tons of options off of every cut and pass. It's just that HS and college teams often keep it simpler cause the players get confused.

The more reads and reactions you have, the harder it is to learn. It's kinda like the old argument about freshman WR's not knowing the offense because of the reads...maybe better to give a simple offense and let the talent come through, at the college level.

Hard to say. You gain something, you lose something.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Exactly. Its primary purpose seems to just be running clock until they set up some set play.

They aren't really aettig up another play as much as they are waiting for anyone to do something.
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[BigPapaVol]

I disagree that the flex is a set pattern. The flex, done right, is all read and react. NBA teams have tons of options off of every cut and pass. It's just that HS and college teams often keep it simpler cause the players get confused.

The more reads and reactions you have, the harder it is to learn. It's kinda like the old argument about freshman WR's not knowing the offense because of the reads...maybe better to give a simple offense and let the talent come through, at the college level.

Hard to say. You gain something, you lose something.

Agreed. With that much directed screening, decent effort will find a good look. Takes understanding screens and utilizing screens depending on defensive responses. Lost skills with all the emphasis on NBA style individual play.
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[StepCross]

The problem is that they don't even appear to be looking to score out of the base flex. They run the initial flex actions as if they're going through the motions at a mid morning shootaround. That's why they end up with 10 seconds on the shot clock freelancing so often.

I agree with this.

It's not the offense that's the problem, it's the players' seriousness about running it well.

I think Pearl has gotten himself caught between what is correct theoretically (his "score early or score late" is theoretically a good plan), and what's a good plan to teach the kids.

He's right that you should score in transition ("early") or make the defense commit to guarding you well for the full 35 ("score late"), but psychologically, that doesn't mean score early or wait around until late!

Rather, it means score early or force the defense to play great defense against a motion-heavy offense (like the flex) for a full 35 seconds, and then burn them when they doze.

Hat is right that our guys are often not doing that; they're getting lazy on offense.

 

[JZVOL]

I disagree that the flex is a set pattern. The flex, done right, is all read and react. NBA teams have tons of options off of every cut and pass. It's just that HS and college teams often keep it simpler cause the players get confused.

The more reads and reactions you have, the harder it is to learn. It's kinda like the old argument about freshman WR's not knowing the offense because of the reads...maybe better to give a simple offense and let the talent come through, at the college level.

Hard to say. You gain something, you lose something.

Fair enough. I was mainly talking about the pattern you posted earlier, which is exactly what what my HS coach made us run.

If there is one thing I am learning it's that there are a million ways to do things and no one right way as far as what offense you run.

 

[LawVol13]

Fair enough. I was mainly talking about the pattern you posted earlier, which is exactly what what my HS coach made us run.

If there is one thing I am learning it's that there are a million ways to do things and no one right way as far as what offense you run.

There don't appear to be a lot of variation in how we run that base flex. It's been the same since Pearl has arrived. A flex offense is usually the easiest offense to teach. That's why it's popular in junior high and high school, and that's why you don't see much of it at the college level.

 

[LawVol13]

They aren't really aettig up another play as much as they are waiting for anyone to do something.
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This year, that's true. I noticed many times last year, we'd run the shotclock down to 15 or so and then set up a play. This year, it seems that we just run the clock down and bring out a post to set a ball screen and just hope Goins can pull something out of his ass.