Second R Debate

BTW, one thing I've noticed about Republicans is they are adamantly against domestic welfare, but almost all of them support global welfare. What the hell is the difference?
 
BTW, one thing I've noticed about Republicans is they are adamantly against domestic welfare, but almost all of them support global welfare. What the hell is the difference?

Question, Baker. Would you support a time constrainment and work requirement for receiving federal assistance?
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Question, Baker. Would you support a time constrainment and work requirement for receiving federal assistance?
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In practice yes, but part of me wants the whole welfare state to go away so badly I almost like the idea of breaking the bank.

I think there's a lot we can do about welfare reform to give incentive for better results. Welfare has destroyed urban families because it gives incentive to shirk responsibility and never marry. It's idiotic. Walter Williams is my favorite economist. He gets racial immunity because he's black, and he's dedicated his whole academic career to demonstrating how government social programs have destroyed the black community. Stossel just did a whole hour special about his book The State Against Blacks. It was great.
 
In practice yes, but part of me wants the whole welfare state to go away so badly I almost like the idea of breaking the bank.

I think there's a lot we can do about welfare reform to give incentive for better results. Welfare has destroyed urban families because it gives incentive to shirk responsibility and never marry. It's idiotic. Walter Williams is my favorite economist. He gets racial immunity because he's black, and he's dedicated his whole academic career to demonstrating how government social programs have destroyed the black community. Stossel just did a whole hour special about his book The State Against Blacks. It was great.

I don't see that as welfare if someone works for it. More of a workfare. I find it a bit unrealistic to cut out all federal assistance in a practical sense not in a principle sense. It would at least get people off their asses and contributing in some form. I espouse many Democratic principles (leaning more to conservative democrat principles) and some Republican principles. I realize that anyone can find themselves down on their luck so to speak. We need something for those that have and will contribute to help in the interim. BUT ANYONE WORTH THEIR SALT WOULD BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING FOR THAT HELP. Our current career welfare folks are the perfect examples of learned helplessness.
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I don't see that as welfare if someone works for it. More of a workfare. I find it a bit unrealistic to cut out all federal assistance in a practical sense not in a principle sense. It would at least get people off their asses and contributing in some form. I espouse many Democratic principles (leaning more to conservative democrat principles) and some Republican principles. I realize that anyone can find themselves down on their luck so to speak. We need something for those that have and will contribute to help in the interim. BUT ANYONE WORTH THEIR SALT WOULD BE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING FOR THAT HELP. Our current career welfare folks are the perfect examples of learned helplessness.
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I just think that when people are down on their luck, if they can't turn to government there will be other places to turn. That's how it was before welfare. Churches and community groups like the Elks Lodge made sure the poor were taken care of. We fail to recognize this, and assume that without government the poor would be SOL. To me welfare is more about control than it is charity. Big government planners are very charitable with other people's money. Americans in general give much more in charitable donations than our more socialist counterparts in western Europe. Ted Kennedy, maybe the most charitable American politician (with other people's money), charitably donated something like $87 of his own fortune in the final year of his life.
 
I just think that when people are down on their luck, if they can't turn to government there will be other places to turn. That's how it was before welfare. Churches and community groups like the Elks Lodge made sure the poor were taken care of. We fail to recognize this, and assume that without government the poor would be SOL. To me welfare is more about control than it is charity. Big government planners are very charitable with other people's money. Americans in general give much more in charitable donations than our more socialist counterparts in western Europe. Ted Kennedy, maybe the most charitable American politician (with other people's money), charitably donated something like $87 of his own fortune in the final year of his life.

I understand your rugged individualism stance about private charities providing for the poor. However, we had a president, Hoover, that subscribed to the same philosophy. It didn't work then.
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I understand your rugged individualism stance about private charities providing for the poor. However, we had a president, Hoover, that subscribed to the same philosophy. It didn't work then.
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Hoover? The "do-nothing" president who exacerbated the depression? It's funny how we remember history. FDR originally campaigned as a "do-nothing" candidate who claimed Hoover was overstepping his bounds as president and America needed more laissez faire. So FDR won, completely flipped the script on campaign promises, and America ended up with a decade of depression. In reality, Hoover was a "do-nothing" compared to FDR, but not compared to his predecessors.
 
Hoover? The "do-nothing" president who exacerbated the depression? It's funny how we remember history. FDR originally campaigned as a "do-nothing" candidate who claimed Hoover was overstepping his bounds as president and America needed more laissez faire. So FDR won, completely flipped the script on campaign promises, and America ended up with a decade of depression. In reality, Hoover was a "do-nothing" compared to FDR, but not compared to his predecessors.

You forget how awesome FDR was in Pearl Harbor.
 
Hoover? The "do-nothing" president who exacerbated the depression? It's funny how we remember history. FDR originally campaigned as a "do-nothing" candidate who claimed Hoover was overstepping his bounds as president and America needed more laissez faire. So FDR won, completely flipped the script on campaign promises, and America ended up with a decade of depression. In reality, Hoover was a "do-nothing" compared to FDR, but not compared to his predecessors.

So his whole New Deal (which he didn't exactly know what it was going to be) during the campaign was a do nothing stance? I dont follow that at all. Hoover gave massive federal assistance to banks and businesses but very little to nothing for individuals. The depression deepened. That's a part of what cost him any hope of re-election. After defeat, he fiddled while the fires of the depression spread and America burned.

I am not arguing that FDR's policies ended the depression, but they offered help to the average person. (His plan was a workfare program that you said you could support. LBJ, who I loathe, turned it into a handout.) Why did he win narrow re-election in '36 at the height of the crisis if everyone hated his so called flip-flopping on his campaign promises? If you want to get technical, only the massive federal spending of WWII ended the depression. That's counter to your arguments of very little government spending during an economic crisis. I am not advocating more spending now, but that's what happened.
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So his whole New Deal (which he didn't exactly know what it was going to be) during the campaign was a do nothing stance? I dont follow that at all. Hoover gave massive federal assistance to banks and businesses but very little to nothing for individuals. The depression deepened. That's a part of what cost him any hope of re-election. After defeat, he fiddled while the fires of the depression spread and America burned.

I am not arguing that FDR's policies ended the depression, but they offered help to the average person. (His plan was a workfare program that you said you could support. LBJ, who I loathe, turned it into a handout.) Why did he win narrow re-election in '36 at the height of the crisis if everyone hated his so called flip-flopping on his campaign promises? If you want to get technical, only the massive federal spending of WWII ended the depression. That's counter to your arguments of very little government spending during an economic crisis. I am not advocating more spending now, but that's what happened.
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Economist Murray Rothbard on Hoover:

Led by President Hoover, the government embarked on what Anderson has accurately called the "Hoover New Deal." For if we define "New Deal" as an antidepression program marked by extensive governmental economic planning and intervention – including bolstering of wage rates and prices, expansion of credit, propping up of weak firms, and increased government spending (e.g., subsidies to unemployment and public works) – Herbert Clark Hoover must be considered the founder of the New Deal in America. Hoover, from the very start of the depression, set his course unerringly toward the violation of all the laissez-faire canons. As a consequence, he left office with the economy at the depths of an unprecedented depression, with no recovery in sight after three and a half years, and with unemployment at the terrible and unprecedented rate of 25 percent of the labor force.

I understand your rugged individualism stance about private charities providing for the poor. However, we had a president, Hoover, that subscribed to the same philosophy. It didn't work then.
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Hoover did not subscribe to individualism and that's where the depression got out of control.
 
We see the same event through different eyes.
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I don't understand how you can. The facts are right there. There's no debating he was the greatest economic interventionist in American history up to that point.
 
I don't understand how you can. The facts are right there. There's no debating he was the greatest economic interventionist in American history up to that point.

His programs were geared to help businesses and banks. I agree with that. There was little to no help for the individual. That's my point. He was a corporate welfare advocate. That is why most regular people hated him.
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Hoover? The "do-nothing" president who exacerbated the depression? It's funny how we remember history. FDR originally campaigned as a "do-nothing" candidate who claimed Hoover was overstepping his bounds as president and America needed more laissez faire. So FDR won, completely flipped the script on campaign promises, and America ended up with a decade of depression. In reality, Hoover was a "do-nothing" compared to FDR, but not compared to his predecessors.

exactly correct.
 
His programs were geared to help businesses and banks. I agree with that. There was little to no help for the individual. That's my point. He was a corporate welfare advocate. That is why most regular people hated him.
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If he had really subscribed to individualism, he would've never implemented those programs. IMO, those programs are what made the crash into a depression.

What's funny, is history is repeating itself as we speak. Hoover to FDR = Bush to Obama. Obama ran on a platform that "this philosophy [free market] does not work" when Bush did more than almost any president to undermine the free market.

You can read this if you are interested in Hover's intervention that wasn't directed towards banks and businesses:

The Development of Hoover's Interventionism: Unemployment

Hoover, of course, did not come upon his interventionist ideas suddenly. It is instructive to trace their development and the similar development in the country as a whole, if we are to understand clearly how Hoover could so easily, and with such nationwide support, reverse the policies that had ruled in all previous depressions.

Herbert Clark Hoover was very much the "forward-looking" politician. We have seen that Hoover pioneered in attempts to intimidate investment bankers in placing foreign loans. Characteristic of all Hoover's interventions was the velvet glove on the mailed fist: i.e., the businessmen would be exhorted to adopt "voluntary" measures that the government desired, but implicit was the threat that if business did not "volunteer" properly, compulsory controls would soon follow.

When Hoover returned to the United States after the war and a long stay abroad, he came armed with a suggested "Reconstruction Program." Such programs are familiar to the present generation, but they were new to the United States in that more innocent age. Like all such programs, it was heavy on government planning, which was envisaged as "voluntary" cooperative action under "central direction."[3] The government was supposed to correct "our marginal faults" – including undeveloped health and education, industrial "waste," the failure to conserve resources, the nasty habit of resisting unionization, and seasonal unemployment.

Featured in Hoover's plan were increased inheritance taxes, public dams, and, significantly, government regulation of the stock market to eliminate "vicious speculation." Here was an early display of Hoover's hostility toward the stock market, a hostility that was to form one of the leitmotifs of his administration.[4] Hoover, who to his credit has never pretended to be the stalwart of laissez-faire that most people now consider him, notes that some denounced his program as "radical" – as well they might have.

So "forward-looking" was Hoover and his program that Louis Brandeis, Herbert Croly of the New Republic, Colonel Edward M. House, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and other prominent Democrats for a while boomed Hoover for the presidency.[5]

Hoover continued to expound interventionism in many areas during 1920. Most relevant to our concerns was the conference on labor-management relations that Hoover directed from 1919 to 1920, on appointment by President Wilson and in association with Secretary of Labor William B. Wilson, a former official of the United Mine Workers of America. The conference – which included "forward-looking" industrialists like Julius Rosenwald, Oscar Straus, and Owen D. Young, labor leaders, and economists like Frank W. Taussig – recommended wider collective bargaining, criticized "company unions," urged the abolition of child labor, and called for national old-age insurance, fewer working hours, "better housing," health insurance, and government arbitration boards for labor disputes. These recommendations reflected Hoover's views.[6]

Hoover was appointed Secretary of Commerce by President Harding in March 1921, under pressure from the left wing of the Republican Party, led by William Allen White and Judge Nathan Miller of New York. (Hoover was one of the first of the modern breed of politician, who can find a home in either party.) We have seen that the government pursued a largely laissez-faire policy in the depression of 1920–1921, but this was not the doing of Herbert Hoover. On the contrary, he "set out to reconstruct America."[7] He only accepted the appointment on the condition that he would be consulted on all economic policies of the federal government. He was determined to transform the Department of Commerce into "the economic interpreter to the American people (and they badly need one)."[8]

Hardly had Hoover assumed office when he began to organize an economic conference and a committee on unemployment. The committee established a branch in every state having substantial unemployment, along with subbranches in local communities and mayors' emergency committees in 31 cities.[9] The committee contributed relief to the unemployed, and also organized collaboration between the local and federal governments.

As Hoover recalls:

We developed cooperation between the federal, state, and municipal governments to increase public works. We persuaded employers to "divide" time among their employees so that as many as possible would have some incomes. We organized the industries to undertake renovation, repair, and, where possible, expand construction.[10]

Standard Oil of New Jersey announced a policy of laying off its older employees last, and it increased its repairs and production for inventory; US Steel also invested $10 million in repairs immediately upon conclusion of the conference.[11] In short, the biggest businesses were the first to agree.

Happily, the depression was about over by the time these measures could take effect, but an ominous shadow had been cast over any future depression, a shadow that would grimly materialize when the 1929 crash arrived. Once again, these measures bore the characteristic Hoover stamp; the government compulsion and planning were larded with the rhetoric of "voluntary cooperation." He spoke of these and other suggested measures as "mobilization of cooperative action of our manufacturers and employers, of our public bodies and local authorities." And there came into use the now all too familiar war analogy: "An infinite amount of misery could be saved if we have the same spirit of spontaneous cooperation in every community for reconstruction that we had in war."

While the government did not greatly intervene in the 1920–1921 recession, there were enough ominous seeds of the later New Deal. In December 1920, the War Finance Corporation was revived as an aid to farm exports, and a $100 million Foreign Trade Financial Corporation was established. Farm agitation against short-selling led to the Capper Grain Futures Act, in August 1921, regulating trading on the grain exchanges. Furthermore, on the state level, New York passed rent laws, restricting the eviction rights of landlords; Kansas created an Industrial Court regulating all key industries as "public utilities"; and the Non-Partisan League conducted socialistic experiments in North Dakota.[12]

Perhaps the most important development of all, however, was the President's Conference on Unemployment, called by Harding at the instigation of the indefatigable Herbert Hoover. This was probably the most fateful omen of antidepression policies to come. About 300 eminent men in industry, banking, and labor were called together in September 1921 to discuss the problem of unemployment. President Harding's address to the conference was filled with great good sense and was almost the swan song of the Old Order's way of dealing with depressions. Harding declared that liquidation was inevitable and attacked governmental planning and any suggestion of Treasury relief. He said, "The excess stimulation from that source is to be reckoned a cause of trouble rather than a source of cure."[13]

To the conference members, it was clear that Harding's words were mere stumbling blocks to the wheels of progress, and they were quickly disregarded. The conferees obviously preferred Hoover's opening speech, to the effect that the era of passivity was now over; in contrast to previous depressions, Hoover was convinced, the government must "do something."[14] The conference's aim was to promulgate the idea that government should be responsible for curing depressions, even if the sponsors had no clear idea of the specific things that government should do. The important steps, in the view of the dominant leaders, were to urge the necessity of government planning to combat depressions and to bolster the idea of public works as a depression remedy.[15] The conference very strongly and repeatedly praised the expansion of public works in a depression and urged coordinated plans by all levels of government.[16] Not to be outdone by the new administration, former President Wilson, in December, added his call for a federal public-works-stabilization program.

The extreme public-works agitators were disappointed that the conference did not go far enough. For example, the economist William Leiserson had thought that a Federal Labor Reserve Board "would do for the labor market what the Federal Reserve Board did for the banking interests." But the wiser heads saw that they had made a great gain. As a direct result of Hoover's conference, twice as many municipal bonds for public works were floated in 1921 and 1922 as in any previous year; federal highway grants-in-aid to the states totaled $75 million in the autumn of 1921, and American opinion was aroused on the entire subject.

It was no accident that the conference had arrived at its interventionist conclusions. As usually happens in conferences of this type, a small group of staff men, along with Herbert Hoover, actually prepared the recommendations that the illustrious front men duly ratified.[17] Secretary of the crucial Public Works Committee of the conference was Otto Tod Mallery, for a long time the nation's leading advocate of public-works programs in depressions. Mallery was a member and guiding spirit of the Pennsylvania State Industrial Board and Secretary of the Pennsylvania Emergency Public Works Commission, which had pioneered in public-works planning, and Mallery's resolutions thoughtfully pointed to the examples of Pennsylvania and California as beacon lights for the federal government to follow.[18]

Mallery was one of the leading spirits in the American Association for Labor Legislation (AALL) an organization of eminent citizens and economists devoted to the promotion of government intervention in the fields of labor, unemployment, and welfare. The Association had held the first national unemployment conference in early 1914. Now, its executive director, John B. Andrews, boasted that the presidential conference's recommendations followed the standard recommendations formulated by the AALL in 1915. These standard recommendations featured public works and emergency public relief, at the usual hours and wage rates – the wage rates of the boom period were supposed to be maintained.[19] Neither was the conference's following of the AALL line a coincidence. Aside from Mallery's critical role, the conference also employed the expert knowledge of the following economists, all of whom were officials of the AALL: John B. Andrews, Henry S. Dennison, Edwin F. Gay, Samuel A. Lewisohn, Samuel McCune Lindsay, Wesley C. Mitchell, Ida M. Tarbell, Mary Van Kleeck, and Leo Wolman.[20]

It seems clear that the businessmen at the conference were not supposed to mold policy; their function was to be indoctrinated with the Hoover-AALL line and then to spread the interventionist gospel to other business leaders. Andrews singled out for particular praise in this regard Joseph H. Defrees, of the United States Chamber of Commerce, who appealed to many business organizations to cooperate with the mayors' emergency committees, and generally to accept "business responsibility" to solve the unemployment problem. President Samuel Gompers of the American Federation of Labor (AF of L) also hailed the widespread acceptance by industry of its "responsibility" for unemployment, as an outcome of this conference.

Hoover did his best to intervene in the recession, attempting also to stimulate home construction and urging banks to finance more exports. Fortunately, however, Harding and the rest of the cabinet were not convinced of the virtues of governmental depression "remedies." But eight years later, Hoover was finally to have his chance. As Lyons concludes, "A precedent for federal intervention in economic depression was set, rather to the horror of conservatives."[21]

It is, of course, a sociological law that a government bureau, once launched, never dies, and the conference was true to this law. The conference resolved itself into three research committees, run by a staff of experts, with Hoover in overall command. One project bore fruit in Leo Wolman's Planning and Control of Public Works, a pro–public works study published in 1930. A second committee published a study on Seasonal Operation in the Construction Industry, in 1924, in cooperation with the Division of Building and Housing of the Department of Commerce. This work urged seasonal stabilization of construction, and was in part the result of a period of propaganda activity by the American Construction Council, a trade association headed by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Its foreword was written by Herbert Hoover.[22] The most important project was a study of Business Cycles and Unemployment, published in 1923.

Hoover invited the National Bureau of Economic Research (headed by Wesley C. Mitchell) to make a "fact-finding" study of the problems of forecasting and control of business cycles, and then appointed a Committee on Business Cycles to draft policy recommendations for the report. Chairman of the committee was Owen D. Young, and other members included Edward Eyre Hunt, who had been secretary of the President's Conference, Joseph Defrees, Mary Van Kleeck, Clarence Woolley, and Matthew Woll of the AF of L. Funds for the project were considerately supplied by the Carnegie Corporation. Wesley C. Mitchell, of the National Bureau and AALL, planned and directed the report, which included interventionist chapters by Mallery and Andrews on public works and unemployment benefits, and by Wolman on unemployment insurance. While the National Bureau was supposed to do only fact-finding, Mitchell, in discussing his report, advocated "social experimentation."[23]

Meanwhile, Hoover had not been idle on the more direct legislative front. Senator W.S. Kenyon of Iowa, in late 1921, introduced a bill supported by Hoover, embodying recommendations of the conference and specifically requiring a public-works-stabilization program. In the December 1921 hearings, the Kenyon Bill was supported by numerous leading economists, as well as by the American Federation of Labor, the American Engineering Council (of which Hoover had just been named president), and the United States Chamber of Commerce. One of the supporters was Wesley C. Mitchell. The bill never came to a vote, however, largely due to healthy senatorial skepticism based on laissez-faire ideas.

The next public-works-stabilization bill before Congress was the Zihlman Bill in the House. This was promoted by the National Unemployment League, formed in 1922 for that purpose. Hearings were held in the House Labor Committee in February 1923. Hoover backed the proposal, but it failed of adoption.

Finally, Hoover presented the report on business cycles and unemployment to the Congress, and strongly urged a public-works program in depressions. Later, in 1929, Hoover's Committee on Recent Economic Changes would also support a public-works program.

In 1924, the AALL continued its agitation. It participated in a national conference proposing public-works planning. The conference was called by the Federated American Engineering Societies in January. In 1923, Wisconsin and Massachusetts were persuaded to adopt a stabilizing public-works program. Massachusetts was directly swayed by testimony from the ubiquitous Andrews and Mallery. These state programs were never translated into effective action, but they did indicate the developing climate. In January 1925, Hoover had the satisfaction of seeing President Coolidge adopt his position. Addressing the Associated General Contractors of America (a group that stood to gain by a government building program), Coolidge called for public-works planning to stabilize depressions. Senators George H. Pepper and James Couzens tried to pass public-works-planning legislation in 1925 and 1926, but they failed, along with later attempts by Senator Wesley Jones, who submitted bills that had been drafted in Hoover's Department of Commerce. The Republican Senate was the most recalcitrant, and one Pepper Bill was filibustered to death there. Even favorable reports by its Commerce Committee could not sway the Senate. By this time, not only Hoover and Coolidge, but also Secretary Mellon, the Democratic Party in 1924, and later Governor Alfred E. Smith of New York, had endorsed the public-works program. In May 1928, Senator Robert F. Wagner (D, NY) introduced three bills for comprehensive public-works planning, including the creation of an employment stabilization board, but the plan was not considered by Congress.[24]

After Hoover was elected president, he became more circumspect in presenting his views, but he carried on the fight with renewed vigor. His technique was to "leak" the "Hoover Plan" to trusted associates, who would obviously be presenting Hoover's views. He chose as his vehicle Governor Ralph Owen Brewster of Maine. Brewster presented a public-works plan to the Conference of Governors in late 1928, and waxed eloquent about the plan as designed to "prevent depressions."[25]

His use of the term "Road to Plenty" was hardly a coincidence, for Hoover had adopted the plan of Messrs. Foster and Catchings, which had recently been outlined in their famous book, The Road to Plenty (1928). The authors had submitted the plan to Brewster, and, after Hoover's endorsement, Brewster brought Professor William T. Foster along to the Governors' Conference as his technical advisor. Foster and Catchings, bellwethers of inflation and the bull market and leading underconsumptionists, had been closely involved in the public-works agitation. Foster was director of the Pollak Foundation for Economic Research, founded by investment banker Waddill Catchings. The pair had published a series of very popular books during the 1920s, agitating for such panaceas as public works and monetary inflation.[26]

Although seven or eight governors were enthusiastic about the Hoover-Foster-Catchings Plan, the conference tabled the idea. A large part of the press hailed the plan in extravagant terms, as "prosperity insurance," a "prosperity reserve," or as a "pact to outlaw depression"; while more conservative organs properly ridiculed it as a chimerical and socialistic effort to outlaw the law of supply and demand. It was not surprising that William Green of the AF of L hailed the plan as the most important announcement on wages and employment in a decade, or that the AF of L's John P. Frey announced that Hoover had now accepted the old AF of L theory that depressions are caused by underconsumption and low wages.[27] The press reported that "labor is jubilant, because leaders believe that the next President has found ... a remedy for unemployment which, at least in its philosophy and its groundwork, is identical with that of labor."[28]

The closeness of Foster and Catchings to Hoover is again demonstrated by the detailed account of their own plan that they published in April 1929. In an article entitled "Mr. Hoover's Plan: What It Is and What It Is Not – A New Attack on Poverty," they wrote authoritatively that Hoover should wield a stabilization public-works reserve, not of $150 million, as had often been mentioned in previous years, but of the gigantic sum of $3 billion. This plan would iron out prices and the business cycle, and stabilize business. At last, scientific economics was to be wielded as a weapon by an American president: "The Plan ... is business guided by measurements instead of hunches. It is economics for an age of science – economics worthy of the new President."[29]

Herbert Hoover's Depression by Murray N. Rothbard
 
Rothbard? The guy that coined the phrase" free-market anarchism"? Not exactly an unbiased source. We apparently have a difference of philosophy. I believe too much and too little government involvement in business is a recipe for disaster. I may coin my own philosophy as the Goldilocks Free Market. :)
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Rothbard? The guy that coined the phrase" free-market anarchism"? Not exactly an unbiased source. We apparently have a difference of philosophy. I believe too much and too little government involvement in business is a recipe for disaster. I may coin my own philosophy as the Goldilocks Free Market. :)
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Yeah, but there's no such thing as objective sources.
 
Yeah, but there's no such thing as objective sources.

True to a point. Most literature and, to a greater degree, film are as much about the author's view or the general societal views of the time. But, more moderate voices can be found. The old saying that there are 3 sides to every story ring very true to me. As a result, I tend to have more moderate views. People tend to gravitate to people that espouse their views. It's comfortable. You are a self-described libertarian, which I have no problem with that. Naturally, you would agree with Rothbard. But, Rothbard has been described as a father of modern libertarianism for a reason. I do not trust anyone that espouses anarchy as a viable form of government like Rothbard.
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True to a point. Most literature and, to a greater degree, film are as much about the author's view or the general societal views of the time. But, more moderate voices can be found. The old saying that there are 3 sides to every story ring very true to me. As a result, I tend to have more moderate views. People tend to gravitate to people that espouse their views. It's comfortable. You are a self-described libertarian, which I have no problem with that. Naturally, you would agree with Rothbard. But, Rothbard has been described as a father of modern libertarianism for a reason. I do not trust anyone that espouses anarchy as a viable form of government like Rothbard.
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But it would still just be the author's view of general societal views. I think people believe that moderation gives them legitimacy (or rather a lack of bias), but moderation provides a framework for a viewpoint, just as radicalism does.
 
But it would still just be the author's view of general societal views. I think people believe that moderation gives them legitimacy (or rather a lack of bias), but moderation provides a framework for a viewpoint, just as radicalism does.

Moderation is my comfort zone just like libertarianism is yours.
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National poll of GOP presidential contenders conducted
between June 11-14 of Republican voters by
Econ/yougov using the interactive method of polling:

PALIN----------------20%

ROMNEY---------------14%

GIULIANI-------------11%

PERRY----------------8%

CAIN-----------------7%

GINGRICH-------------5%

BACHMANN-------------5%

PAUL-----------------5%

PAWLENTY-------------4%

SANTORUM-------------3%

HUNTSMAN-------------2%

ROEMER---------------1%

JOHNSON--------------0%

KARGER---------------0%

NO PREFERENCE--------15%



In a seperate Rasmussen poll any generic Republican
candidate leads Obama by two points 46% - 44%.
 

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