See ya Selby, a BP fan gets nervous

#1
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MikeHamiltonFan

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#1
I have read the previous threads and I wanted to give my own perspective. I love TN basketball. I have personally attended games during the Wade Houston, O'Neill, Green, Peterson and Pearl eras. I also love learning history and so I think I have a realistic vision of what TN basketball is and should be.

TN has basketball history. The complete idiots posting on here that Bruce Pearl saved TN basketball that has always sucked need to shut their mouths until they have looked at cumulative basketball records and learned about Coach Devoe.

TN has top 20 in the nation facilities. Thompson Boling used to have the problem of being too big, which tons of schools would love to have, now it is one of the truly special venues in college basketball and aside from being top notch it is in an area where when the product is exciting, the mens program can make the school alot of money.

TN mens program has nothing to fear from the womens program. A mediocre mens team has always outsold the very best women's teams in the history of college basketball and it will always be so. That could be because lots of us are aware that we can hang with some of the UT womens players 1 on 1, and that we would be humiliated by Skyler McBee. Put another way, Pearl's son would be the best player in the WNBA.

Pearls product is exciting. Was I ecstatic when TN beat UK in Rupp under O'Neill? Yes! But was it painful to watch that game that I think ended up 44-42? Sure was. Jerry Green had fast players who scored alot of points and sometimes quit playing defense. Pearls teams do more to put pressure on inbounders and to press when they have the personnel than Green ever did. It is an exciting style of play.

Pearl's recruiting has been less than stellar.
In another thread people talked about who Pearl brought in, I will discuss these players.
5* Scotty Hopson his highest rated recruit. Pearl homers claimed that he was going to be one and done. He was not ready to play in the SEC as a freshman. He may end up being a great player, it remains to be seen. I think he has the most raw potential for NBA play since V Yarborough, and I hope it is coached better.
5* JP Prince - He WAS NOT a 5 star recruit for TN. You either know about basketball and you purposely left out the truth or you are ignorant. JP was a 5 star recruit for Arizona who showed up and was not good enough to play in the PAC 10. Rumors from prolonged mono to Lyme's disease surrounded his lethargy and struggles as he lost weight on an already skinny frame. He came back to his home state with high expectations for those who remembered his high school hype. Since he has been at UT he has been a disaster as a PG, and struggled as an SG and is too small to be a F. Maybe this year he has a great year (I actually think he will) and maybe he even gets in late and hangs on at an NBA team (I think that is likely also) but he is not a 5 star TN recruit.
5* Ramar Smith - Kid with tons of skills and tons of attitude problems right off the bat. This kids is the opposite of a Stephon Curry, but reminds me of other players like T White who never made the NBA because they let other parts of life drag them down.
5* Duke Crews - He was recruited in part to be nasty. He was and is nasty...Thug life did not work out for UT.
4* Tyler Smith - Remarkable young man, fell into our lap because of his Father's cancer. Not a TN recruit, rather and Iowa tranfer.
4* Emmanuel Negedu He brought Marisa Miller to a TN game which gives us a star to outshine Ashley Judd. I am hopeful he will develop more, but for now he is a Stanley Asumnu guy who has great hops and nice dunks but who never fills up a stat sheet the way that a less talented Dane Bradshaw does.
4* Renaldo Woolridge - Did not seem ready. Could end up being good. Sad so far.
4* Kenny Hall He seemed like he did well in the Rocky Top League so I am hopeful he will beef up some and be great.
4* Jordan McRae a JP Prince replacement? What will his role be?
4* Phillip Jurrick - This is the worst knock on Pearl. If he doesnt take a hometownish guy (Chatt) who wants to come and is a 4 star, people rip him, but like with Kiffin and Tahj Boyd, PJ never fit Pearls system at all.
3* Bobby Maze - JUCO All-American. We needed him because we had no good PGs. He has been okay but not good enough to pressure the ball and keep people from collapsing on the inside.
3* Brian Williams Best coaching job by Pearl so far by far. This guy gets better every year and was a PROJECT and a half. Credit to big Brian for doing the work and to Pearl for knowing he could/would.


What does it mean that Bruce Pearl takes off to go to coach the Maccabiah games and while watching Grunfeld and his son (who is finally starring) rip up teams by 70 points our best recruit in his tenure here decommits? It means something.

No one is publicly discussing much the turmoil in Bruce's private life and the toll that may be taking, people just prayed that the big house and the new girl would get him all the way back on track.

Where do we go from here? Does TN have to have a Nike contract to be successful in basketball? No. Given that unlike Kansas we are not one of the top 5 basketball programs of all time, would it help if we had a different shoe contract? Yes.

Bruce Pearl took over a program with some real talent left by Buzz Peterson. He is a better coach than Buzz. He had unbelievable facilities that are now even better than they were. Practice, locker rooms etc we should not miss a recruit because of facilities. We are also not devoid of tradition but if a kid grows up thinking of top programs he will want to head to Duke, Carolina, Kansas etc. If a stud kid wants to go to the NBA, he will think about the guy he models his game after and look to his school. Big men can go to Georgetown, pgs to Texas etc.

Bruce Pearl needs to have point guards who are fast as anything and who can shoot the three. He also needs point guards who want to press and steal and have thunder dunks. His system should be easy to sell to top recruits. We need hard workers, not lazy prima donnas who hate defense, we need model citizens, not illiterate pot smoking thugs etc. I think Bruce knows all of this. I think my worry is that sometimes he seems to recruit the wrong players, and we are to the place now where he has his best team talentwise and a VERY small window to do something with it.

All of that said, TN gets to the Elite 8 this year. It is the best finish in my lifetime and should bring in some of the studs who are thinking about TN. We will settle into the groove of 2nd best team in SEC East and a constant threat in the NCAA tournament. That will keep Bruce here and will be a ton of fun. It is also incredible when you think about how he eased past Billy D and Florida. Thanks Dane Bradshaw amongst others.

I am a little sad at this point but I know Bruce is a better coach than anyone else we would get to come to TN at this point, and I know he will really make something special happen with this team. Talent wise, Prince, Hopson, Smith and Chism will give us 4 starters who all could play in the NBA potentially. That has never been the case in my life. A problem is that we still have too many tall guys who are not fast enough to press, but I am hoping that when we beat Memphis this year and they have a bad year post Cal, some of the Worldwide Wes express will be derailed and we will start getting more Memphis area ballers. Willie Kemp would have done much better under Pearl than he will do in his career at Tiger High.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to continuing the conversation.
 
#3
#3
You still have to recruit someone who is transferring... Also, JP Prince was still a 5* player and who cares if he couldn't play for Arizona? NBADraft.net has him being drafted in the 2nd round. Going to go out on a limb and say the guy who runs that site isn't a Tennessee fan and he seems to think highly of JP Prince. Should also be noted that Tyler Smith originally committed to Tennessee. Buzz was fired and he decommitted.

Thanks for directing half of that book to me though :p. What happened to Wayne Chism on your list?
 
#5
#5
Wimberlake said:
You still have to recruit someone who is transferring... Also, JP Prince was still a 5* player and who cares if he couldn't play for Arizona? NBADraft.net has him being drafted in the 2nd round. Going to go out on a limb and say the guy who runs that site isn't a Tennessee fan and he seems to think highly of JP Prince. Should also be noted that Tyler Smith originally committed to Tennessee. Buzz was fired and he decommitted.

Thanks for directing half of that book to me though :p. What happened to Wayne Chism on your list?
Click to expand...

It is kind of funny that you ask that since I was using your list and you left Chism off.

JP Prince was not considered a 5 star at all when he left AZ. If you think he was you were not following basketball much at that point. He would have been welcomed at a number of schools, but not ones that had 4 stars already. He was a free project to try out.

I wanted to leave the T Smith recruitment alone out of respect. Either way you slice that thing for those in the know, B Pearl did not recruit T Smith here. Pearl did handle himself admirably, and I am a fan of Pearl as I said, but he did not recruit T Smith to the school due to his unwillingness to play the game.

Calipari? Plays the game. TN does not have a worldwide wes and we never will, but we also do not ever get 5 star talent. When you look at the sure fire one and dones you have to recognize that they want shoe contracts like Lebron. The fact that they have to play in college for a year does not diminish their ego or the fact that they think a college should be willing to pay for their services. I do not think we should pay for their services.

What I would love are some 3-4 star PGs who are as undervalued as B Williams. Jujuan Smith was the best guard Pearl has had for his defensive press system. A guard who can defend but cannot shoot or pass well is not helpful (Tabb) but a guard who can do it all but who is overlooked would be great. A stud who had the brain of a Bradshaw and the body of a R Smith would probably be rated as a 5 star and therefore will have his hand out for he and his entourage to get taken care of.

Thats why B Pearl makes the big bucks. I am concerned his recruiting is not as great as it should be considering the exposure our program has gotten, how attractive our style of play should be etc. Selby had me convinced that Pearl was going to turn that corner from making TN consistently good (which is better than we have been except in few eras) to consistently great (which would be a real first).

We are a few three pointers away from victories against Memphis, against Greg Oden's buckeyes etc that would have changed the perception of B Pearl. This year we will win those games I think, but the problem is that the next year we will struggle back down to 16 wins or so unless we get an absolute superstar like Selby to fill the HUGE void left when the most talented group of seniors we have had since I was born graduate.
 
#7
#7
MikeHamiltonFan said:
It is kind of funny that you ask that since I was using your list and you left Chism off.

JP Prince was not considered a 5 star at all when he left AZ. If you think he was you were not following basketball much at that point. He would have been welcomed at a number of schools, but not ones that had 4 stars already. He was a free project to try out.

I wanted to leave the T Smith recruitment alone out of respect. Either way you slice that thing for those in the know, B Pearl did not recruit T Smith here. Pearl did handle himself admirably, and I am a fan of Pearl as I said, but he did not recruit T Smith to the school due to his unwillingness to play the game.

Calipari? Plays the game. TN does not have a worldwide wes and we never will, but we also do not ever get 5 star talent. When you look at the sure fire one and dones you have to recognize that they want shoe contracts like Lebron. The fact that they have to play in college for a year does not diminish their ego or the fact that they think a college should be willing to pay for their services. I do not think we should pay for their services.

What I would love are some 3-4 star PGs who are as undervalued as B Williams. Jujuan Smith was the best guard Pearl has had for his defensive press system. A guard who can defend but cannot shoot or pass well is not helpful (Tabb) but a guard who can do it all but who is overlooked would be great. A stud who had the brain of a Bradshaw and the body of a R Smith would probably be rated as a 5 star and therefore will have his hand out for he and his entourage to get taken care of.

Thats why B Pearl makes the big bucks. I am concerned his recruiting is not as great as it should be considering the exposure our program has gotten, how attractive our style of play should be etc. Selby had me convinced that Pearl was going to turn that corner from making TN consistently good (which is better than we have been except in few eras) to consistently great (which would be a real first).

We are a few three pointers away from victories against Memphis, against Greg Oden's buckeyes etc that would have changed the perception of B Pearl. This year we will win those games I think, but the problem is that the next year we will struggle back down to 16 wins or so unless we get an absolute superstar like Selby to fill the HUGE void left when the most talented group of seniors we have had since I was born graduate.
Click to expand...

Haha. My bad then on leaving off Wayne Chism. I haven't gone back to look but I will trust you're right. Anyways, I am just quick to defend Pearl when people throw him under the bus.

You're that Pearl has been a basket away in many games that change peoples perception of him. Losing to Ohio State in the Sweet 16 by one or two points. Losing to Oklahoma State by two. Losing to Mississippi State by three. What a crappy trend... losing to State schools. Either way, I just like what Bruce Pearl has done for Tennessee basketball. I am excited to see what he does with this years team. Senior leadership under Smith, Chism, Prince and Maze. And players in their second season who have seen what the college game is all about. Hopson, Tatum, Negedu and Woolridge. Any of those guys could step up in a huge way.
 
#9
#9
SGMVols said:
This. Candace Parker would dominate Steven Pearl one-on-one.

What he doesn't know is that the Lady Vols regularly practice against male players...
Click to expand...

And they regularly get beaten by those male players.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#11
#11
If I followed the WNBA I could give you at least 10 women that are easily better than him. I know crack heads better than him...
 
#14
#14
Before I read the rest of the OP's interesting post, I must play Stat Boy and make a correction. It was Green who led UT to victory at Rupp in 1999, and it was 47-46. I had the good fortune of being there.
 
#17
#17
Prince isn't a star, but he is a great supporting piece. Maybe looking at him as a 5-star recruit is wrong, but I think considering injury, Prince has played pretty well. He's a very, very good defender, that at times took over games with his defensive play at the end of last year, and he's a really efficient scorer. He is limited offensively, but what he can do (get to the hole and finish), he does very well.

IMO, JP hasn't been a disappointment. Especially not when you look at the injuries he's played though, having to shoot with his off-hand as a Soph. for example.
 
#18
#18
While I'm at it, I might as well point out another falsehood in the OP.

"A mediocre mens team has always outsold the very best women's teams in the history of college basketball and it will always be so."

Not true. You can go to the NCAA website and see for yourself if you don't believe me. Pay close attention to the last two years of the Buzz Peterson era ('03-'04 and '04-'05).

03-04 avg UT men's attendance = 13,426 (women's = 14,403)
04-05 avg UT men's attendance = 12,225 (women's = 13,449)
 
#20
#20
joeydupree said:
Do you 'know' her ?
Click to expand...

No, but I have seen film of her, and she might be the most talented women's player ever if/when she reaches her full potential. Those who have seen her play say she has the same ability to dunk as many guys...

And the Lady Vols will get to see her in person since we play Baylor in our season opener this year.
 
#21
#21
MikeHamiltonFan said:
but the problem is that the next year we will struggle back down to 16 wins or so unless we get an absolute superstar like Selby to fill the HUGE void left when the most talented group of seniors we have had since I was born graduate.
Click to expand...


Thank you fo making your point clear as the original post really was confusing. It sounded like you were sort of bashing Pearl, but then again not really. Saying he isn't a good recruiter, yet we are playing with the most talented bunch of guys since you've been alive. Granted, you are saying that Bruce didn't have to recruit Tyler, but does that change everything? Didn't Bruce recruit everyone else that is on that team? Seroius question.

I dont' buy the idea Bruce didn't recruit Tyler though. Tyler could have gone to other schools that are in-state. Had he gone to Memphis, he would have a national championship under his belt. If you read up on this story, you will find Bruce indeed had to recruit Tyler. Tyler and his father had a bad taste in his mouth initially.

Personally, I'm not interested in a guy who decommits over Facebook. It says a lot about his twitter. You mentioned thugs, well this is more toward that end of the spectrum. Just read his post. Sounds "thug".

The issue you bring up is an old one and an obvious one. We get players like this on our teams because our lack in academics. It takes a special person to be able to come in and relate to these kids who are able to get into this school due to our lower academic standards, and make men or women with solid heads on their shoulders. Their college experiences are much different than those of the average students. They dont' only have to deal with being on their own for the first time and deal with the typical college pressures... they have to deal with a lot more. Shedding chips on their shoulders. Critics not only from the student body, but the community and press. Fame and all that comes with it.

I think our football team has the right coaches in place to shape that talent. There is a no nonsense policy that is evident in that program, with maybe some exception to Lane's behavior with the media... but I think he was just instilling some confidence in us and his team. He thought FLA was cheating and he was wrong. Big deal. We haven't heard him mouthing off since.

We have yet to have a coach on our basketball team. Our basketball team faces more challenges because it is not as established. So, yes HamiltonFan, we do have to take guys we probably wouldnt' take if we were an elite program. Not because of talent, but because of character or maturity. Hopefully, Pearl will shape the lives of some young men by example. I can't say he has done that after noticing him in photos with all sorts of women in bikinis on Facebook. But, I can't judge him either. It simply leaves room for question. But why risk it, if you are trying to set an example for your players? Hey, I just got a divorce, so I'm goign to start going to lake parties (and to his credit, I heard she was... well... just not a nice person). And no, I'm not being a hypocrate because the lives of an entire basketball team do not depend on me. I CAN GO TO LAKE PARTIES!

So, this is a point I choose to acknowledge. Not many people responded to your point here HamiltonFan. I think it's a good one. Maybe that's why Bruce is overseas. Maybe he's maturing himself as a coach. Maybe he's being a good father and maturing there. We will see. But in reality, it seems we lost just another talented player that has a poor attitude. And with that said, I'd rather know my coach is building his skills, helping the program as a whole and being around his son in an important developmental period for him and not worried about chasing around a guy who already has attitude issues. But that's just me.
 
#22
#22
timmy3 said:
Prince isn't a star, but he is a great supporting piece. Maybe looking at him as a 5-star recruit is wrong, but I think considering injury, Prince has played pretty well. He's a very, very good defender, that at times took over games with his defensive play at the end of last year, and he's a really efficient scorer. He is limited offensively, but what he can do (get to the hole and finish), he does very well.

IMO, JP hasn't been a disappointment. Especially not when you look at the injuries he's played though, having to shoot with his off-hand as a Soph. for example.
Click to expand...

Didn't JP also have a horrible illness a couple of years ago that caused him to lose a bunch of weight?
 
#23
#23
SGMVols said:
While I'm at it, I might as well point out another falsehood in the OP.

"A mediocre mens team has always outsold the very best women's teams in the history of college basketball and it will always be so."

Not true. You can go to the NCAA website and see for yourself if you don't believe me. Pay close attention to the last two years of the Buzz Peterson era ('03-'04 and '04-'05).

03-04 avg UT men's attendance = 13,426 (women's = 14,403)
04-05 avg UT men's attendance = 12,225 (women's = 13,449)
Click to expand...

I think Wade Houston's 5-22 team was also outdrawn by the Women. But, that still puts to rest the belief (of mostly rival fans) that the Women always outdraw the Men.

Perhaps there is a difference of opinion over the definition of "medicore." I'll say that the Women will outdraw really BAD Men's teams.
 
#24
#24
HammonDydek.jpg
 
#25
#25
SGMVols said:
While I'm at it, I might as well point out another falsehood in the OP.

"A mediocre mens team has always outsold the very best women's teams in the history of college basketball and it will always be so."

Not true. You can go to the NCAA website and see for yourself if you don't believe me. Pay close attention to the last two years of the Buzz Peterson era ('03-'04 and '04-'05).

03-04 avg UT men's attendance = 13,426 (women's = 14,403)
04-05 avg UT men's attendance = 12,225 (women's = 13,449)
Click to expand...



Gentlemen,
Are any of you serious about the lady vol attendance? Giving away 4000 tickets to disadvantaged children is awesome, but it is not making for a money making womens program. The mens program when it stunk worst under Buzz was making more money than Pat's best team.

I am bitter as someone who could have been a varsity athlete at UT in the only sport I played enough to be good but saw the sport cut because of Title 9. I also knew girls who got money to row at UT who had never rowed before in their lives. I played for fun against Lady Vols, lost in the one on one games against the bigger girls but I suck at basketball and it was not a blowout when we played. The guys who could maybe play D3 but who couldnt play anywhere in DI who make up the practice squad do beat the girls with regularity.

A guy who is 6'0 and can run is going to in person on campus know he can run faster and change direction faster than almost any girl in sports. Is there a woman on the earth who can beat me in a footrace? Sure! There are lots. But overall as an above average male athlete I dominate women I play sports with. Like many fans, I come to games to express fan support, but also to show my wonder at people doing things I cannot do. Do I know that I am not athletically gifted enough to hang with the backups at UT on the mens team? Yes, I played with them for fun and it was silly how good they were. In the OP I was responding to those who say that mens basketball is overshadowed at UT by saying it is not. Stephen Pearl is faster than the fastest UT womens players and he is quicker as well as faster and if he played with a womens ball he could shoot 3's like Lofton.

The OP was confusing because my thoughts are ambivalent. I am a Bruce Pearl fan who is concerned as the thread suggested by Selby not coming. I do not think UT is a bad program boxing over its weight because of a superstar coach, I think we are a good program with a very good and possibly great coach. I think he may need some guys on his staff who are the Ed Orgeron like recruiters who can make tapes showing the system he wants to run and how it is ideally suited to their steals and breakaway dunks and getting to jack 3's whenever they are "feeling it".

I also truly do not know how big of a handicap it is to play college basketball with a head coach who will not pay players or their relatives and who does not have a tie in to Nike. I know that I do not want it any other way, but I also know that as a result I have to suck it up as some coaches get recruits whose parents suddenly move from old Pontiacs to new Escalades.
 
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