Solid Smackdown of Anti-GMO zealotry

#153
#153
bowlinggreenvol said:
But that orchard video example is predominantly providing locals I imagine. OJ comes from predominantly 2 locations in the world; Brazil and FL. It's such a niche environment product same with sugarcane. 4 counties in FL supply the country with over 50% of the sugar and we still import a 1/5 of our consumption needs.

Extrapolating organic over a larger scale becomes pretty costly because of the hand labor involved. The hands it takes to tend to 17 acres like the Canadian farmer has, is far less than what it takes to tend several hundred acres.
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But theoretically, if you had several, several people in FL that ran 17 acre orange orchards, it would scale out. But more than likely, you would have LOTS of people with policulture orchard-farms, with oranges as a large part of those policultures. And of course OJ and sugar would need to be distributed. But there would be a lot less that needed to be.

And like I said, permaculture concepts scale up, and save labor. Think about it. Permaculture designs systems that capture inputs and reuse outputs. For instance, permaculture design harvests water. It designs systems of swales and berms that harvests water directly into the soil. So, you reduce irrigation costs and irrigation labor. It integrates livestock into crop systems, so fertilization is performed by animals. It integrates livestock natural activities to peck, 'plow' and break up soil, so it saves soil prep labor. Surely, it's not labor-free and it's a lot of hard work, but you are still trying to compare 'organic' from the big-ag framework as opposed to my view of sustainable organic permaculture.
 
#154
#154
golfballs said:
Two types of posters in this thread:

-idealogues
-someone who actually knows what they're talking about

You'd think some people would know when to give up
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i'm in the doesn't know much about the subject, but likes to eat camp.
 
#158
#158
Orange_Crush said:
But theoretically, if you had several, several people in FL that ran 17 acre orange orchards, it would scale out. But more than likely, you would have LOTS of people with policulture orchard-farms, with oranges as a large part of those policultures. And of course OJ and sugar would need to be distributed. But there would be a lot less that needed to be.

And like I said, permaculture concepts scale up, and save labor. Think about it. Permaculture designs systems that capture inputs and reuse outputs. For instance, permaculture design harvests water. It designs systems of swales and berms that harvests water directly into the soil. So, you reduce irrigation costs and irrigation labor. It integrates livestock into crop systems, so fertilization is performed by animals. It integrates livestock natural activities to peck, 'plow' and break up soil, so it saves soil prep labor. Surely, it's not labor-free and it's a lot of hard work, but you are still trying to compare 'organic' from the big-ag framework as opposed to my view of sustainable organic permaculture.
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I compare to big ag because in order for these organic operations to feed thousands in an area they're going to have to be bigger than the stereotypical organic operation, which is limited in the mouths it can feed. I don't know how we could ever expect enough people to start small farms to provide for us with other jobs needing to be done. If the accountants, bankers, teachers all start small-scale farming which is how it would need to be done then who picks up the slack elsewhere?

The societal change, as you've mentioned, is so monumental its for all intents and purposes impossible. As we've added new industries, to the benefit of humanity, it's come at the expense of being able to provide for ourselves.
 
#159
#159
bowlinggreenvol said:
I compare to big ag because in order for these organic operations to feed thousands in an area they're going to have to be bigger than the stereotypical organic operation, which is limited in the mouths it can feed. I don't know how we could ever expect enough people to start small farms to provide for us with other jobs needing to be done. If the accountants, bankers, teachers all start small-scale farming which is how it would need to be done then who picks up the slack elsewhere?

The societal change, as you've mentioned, is so monumental its for all intents and purposes impossible. As we've added new industries, to the benefit of humanity, it's come at the expense of being able to provide for ourselves.
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Wait until the unemployment rate goes down before worrying about all the unfilled positions caused by people raising food. :)

ETA: I think we both agree it probably will never happen. I just tend to think it could, and it would be a net benefit.
 
#160
#160
PKT_VOL said:
I'm not sure if I'll ever understand the fright of "genetically modified foods".
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It's similar to the paranoia over vaccinations. 99% hysteria with just enough anecdotal information thrown in to make the Alex Jones types wet their pants.
 
#161
#161
Orange_Crush said:
Wait until the unemployment rate goes down before worrying about all the unfilled positions caused by people raising food. :)

ETA: I think we both agree it probably will never happen. I just tend to think it could, and it would be a net benefit.
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I'm sure some tobacco guys I know would be willing to put some folks to work and put a dent in that unemployment rate, if it meant not having the headaches that come with the h2a program and its mandates.
 
#164
#164
bowlinggreenvol said:
Aren't you a libertarian? Preventing businesses/innovators from having the ability to protect themselves and rather allow those who didn't work for it to still share in the benefits seems rather socialistic. If you want to share in it that's fine but you'll cost share in it. Which is what Monsanto does by licensing their traits to other seed companies.

Just read an article today that in this industry, seed companies are working on projects 15 years out. Monsanto likes to brag about spending $2.3 mil per day on R&D. That puts them $14B in the hole before they sell a seed or drop of chemical. I'd damn sure find anyway I could to recoup that investment too.
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Not at all. Libertarianism is free market (no patent protection in the real free market). IP law is government control.

Everybody assumes patent protection results in more innovation, but there is nothing really substantial to support this since we haven't seen what things would look like without patent protection. You ask how will billion $ companies recoup cost on R&D? and my answer is who says there would be billion $ companies doing R&D? Patent law has shaped our economy to a point that it's warped. We can argue all day about whether patent law accomplishes more harm than good, but there are 2 certainties - patents make everything more expensive and there are already incentives to innovate outside of patent protection.
 
#166
#166
BartW said:
Thank heavens!

You can now buy GMO-free Water in the U.S.A
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Fulvic acid helps plants extract more nutrients from the soil by breaking down nutrient bonds into a plant available form and helping stabilize applied nutrients. In addition, it helps with water retention/efficiency and photosynthesis.

I'm glad someone finally developed this product because I think my chlorophyll levels have been getting a little low lately.
 
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