Some real truths about Social Security

#26
#26
DefenseisDesire said:
I thought those numbers included war. I got those figures from the official government budget website. If war was not included in defense I don't know what other category it would be in.
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The war budget is largely off the books these days. Once upon a time, before we just held up our hands and admitted to the American Empire, defense was the war budget.

Now, the Keynesian military Capital budget is called "Defense." When we are actually doing fighting, we borrow the money to fund the expeditionary forces and all the rest.
 
#27
#27
volinbham said:
Once again a hate for Kapital clouds the vision. If one is concerned that SS tax is highly regressive, they should favor utilization of wealth growing tools for SS taxes. But no....
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Why? Because that has worked so well in our historic era????? :ermm:
 
#28
#28
therealUT said:
Correct. I am all for ending Social Security. I'd rather invest the $6K I pay in every year. Even with a measly 5% average ROI, I would far exceed the monthly SS receipt that UTGibbs is touting ($1,100/month).
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:lolabove:

Yes, it has worked so well for so many in our historic era.

Have y'all been paying attention the last decade?
 
#29
#29
utgibbs said:
Now, the Keynesian military Capital budget is called "Defense." When we are actually doing fighting, we borrow the money to fund the expeditionary forces and all the rest.
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You are against capitalism, yet you are deriding Keynesian economics???

I would imagine that you have never cracked any of the following books:

The Wealth of Nations
Capitalism and Freedom
The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money

I would be surprised if you have actually even read The Manifesto or Das Kapital...
 
#30
#30
utgibbs said:
:lolabove:

Yes, it has worked so well for so many in our historic era.

Have y'all been paying attention the last decade?
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It has certainly been working for me (bought Ford low and bought Toyota low...also called paying attention).
 
#31
#31
utgibbs said:
Why? Because that has worked so well in our historic era????? :ermm:
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You believe not investing SS tax proceeds in any form is superior to even the equivalent of a savings account? Hell, even if you want to tax only the "rich" to pay for SS it could still benefit from treating it as a pension fund rather than transfer payment. But no, that would be feeding Kapital.
 
#32
#32
volinbham said:
You believe not investing SS tax proceeds in any form is superior to even the equivalent of a savings account? Hell, even if you want to tax only the "rich" to pay for SS it could still benefit from treating it as a pension fund rather than transfer payment. But no, that would be feeding Kapital.
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Volinbham, surely you have noted over the last decade the failure of private pension schemes?

You need only look to Chile, with "El Modelo" of the government private pension system - a system that is far, far, far, far younger than our stately SS, and the massive reforms they have had to undertake during the last government.

In truth, I would call your bluff. Sure you can go private, with no option to buy back in. I got a feeling many in this tight knit circle of college graduates, educated American elites, would feel the pucker factor.
 
#33
#33
therealUT said:
You are against capitalism, yet you are deriding Keynesian economics???

I would imagine that you have never cracked any of the following books:

The Wealth of Nations
Capitalism and Freedom
The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money

I would be surprised if you have actually even read The Manifesto or Das Kapital...
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In a grand irony, I have done much more than crack the former, but I've never cracked the Das Kapital. However, I do intend to read Eighteenth Brumaire one day. I have a smattering of Marx - I know what surplus value means - but I find all of the tedious Marx theoreticians, well, tedious. But the first 12 pages of the Manifesto are dynamite.

PS - I'm not a Keynesian. However, relative to monetarism / neoliberalism, it is a Giant.

PPS - I can really give the Isaiah Berlin treatment to Capitalism and Freedom too.
 
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#34
#34
utgibbs said:
Volinbham, surely you have noted over the last decade the failure of private pension schemes?

You need only look to Chile, with "El Modelo" of the government private pension system - a system that is far, far, far, far younger than our stately SS, and the massive reforms they have had to undertake during the last government.

In truth, I would call your bluff. Sure you can go private, with no option to buy back in. I got a feeling many in this tight knit circle of college graduates, educated American elites, would feel the pucker factor.
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I'm not even saying private (though I would prefer some portion at least be private). I'm saying that the old "lock box" and some investment is better than direct transfer payments from one employee to an ex-employee.
 
#35
#35
volinbham said:
I'm not even saying private (though I would prefer some portion at least be private). I'm saying that the old "lock box" and some investment is better than direct transfer payments from one employee to an ex-employee.
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Well, I for one, believe in debate and authentic democracy! :hi:
 
#36
#36
utgibbs said:
Average Social Security check is $1,100 per month and more than 75% of the checks go to households earning less than $20,000 per annum / 90% going to households earning $40,000 per annum. They are going to those who need it most.
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link?

statistically the old are the richest people in this country and the young are the poorest. social security supports the rich and rapes the poor and you are in favor of it? as for the 40K a year argument. what is the cost of living of the average 75 year old and what % of that income is investment income? you are assuming they have zero savings.
 
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#38
#38
As an interesting aside:

I have read a few reports and commentaries saying that one way to "fix" SS is actually to lower the retirement age. If more jobs opened up to younger individuals, it would lower unemployment, thus increasing SS revenue. Unfortunately, I have yet to see any reports that have coupled this idea with the idea of privatizing SS, as I think that would be one easy way to sell the privatization of SS.
 
#39
#39
droski said:
link?

statistically the old are the richest people in this country and the young are the poorest. social security supports the rich and rapes the poor and you are in favor of it? as for the 40K a year argument. what is the cost of living of the average 75 year old and what % of that income is investment income? you are assuming they have zero savings.
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Numbers were from Dean Baker.

I'd love to see the breakout on the wealth brackets. I should think a small part of the elderly generation are indeed among the most well-off. If you are living in Carmel, good on you, and it's one of my favorite places in the world, but I just don't see how that jibes with the story of the vast majority of elderly.

As for savings, surely you jest. Who in their right mind would be saving over the last 30 years? I love the call for RESPONSIBILITY! and yet the policies of the last 30 years have raped the people dutifully, carefully, building capital for the country without bringing the whole system to near collapse only to wash, rinse, and repeat in a few years (months???) time.
 
#40
#40
therealUT said:
As an interesting aside:

I have read a few reports and commentaries saying that one way to "fix" SS is actually to lower the retirement age. If more jobs opened up to younger individuals, it would lower unemployment, thus increasing SS revenue. Unfortunately, I have yet to see any reports that have coupled this idea with the idea of privatizing SS, as I think that would be one easy way to sell the privatization of SS.
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Interesting.... maybe the French are on to something.

However, as for privatizing SS, have you been asleep for the last decade? Have you not seen what they have had to do in Chile?
 
#41
#41
#42
#42
therealUT said:
Dow Jones Industrial Average (1900 - Present Monthly) - Charting Tools - StockCharts.com

DJIA has gone from 741 points in 1980 to its current level at over 12,000 points. You are right, "who in their right mind would be saving" over this period???

Funny when actual facts happen to thwart your nonsensical blather.
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Just a sampling. And guess what? Government has to bail them out:

The 10 Biggest Pension Failures - Planning to Retire (usnews.com)

If you were wondering, yes, there is a lot more. It's a genuine windfall of data.
 
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#44
#44
therealUT said:
This has what to do with the price of tea in China?
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More than your Zero Sum Game of the Dow Jones. :hi:

(PS - my post was just some of the proof of the Zero Sum Game).

Regardless, we can look at some real world models of private pension systems if you want (but I don't think you will....)
 
#45
#45
utgibbs said:
Numbers were from Dean Baker.

I'd love to see the breakout on the wealth brackets. I should think a small part of the elderly generation are indeed among the most well-off. If you are living in Carmel, good on you, and it's one of my favorite places in the world, but I just don't see how that jibes with the story of the vast majority of elderly.

As for savings, surely you jest. Who in their right mind would be saving over the last 30 years? I love the call for RESPONSIBILITY! and yet the policies of the last 30 years have raped the people dutifully, carefully, building capital for the country without bringing the whole system to near collapse only to wash, rinse, and repeat in a few years (months???) time.
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The Average Net Worth of Americans: Where Do You Stand? | Money Relationship

you are welcome:

65.gif
 
#46
#46
utgibbs said:
More than your Zero Sum Game of the Dow Jones. :hi:

(PS - my post was just some of the proof of the Zero Sum Game).

Regardless, we can look at some real world models of private pension systems if you want (but I don't think you will....)
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Explain the genius of the zero sum Dow.
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#47
#47
#48
#48
droski said:
so 10 failures over 20 years compared to trillions in shortfalls in the public sector despite the public sector being what 20% of the private sector size?
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BZZZK! You lost on Jeopardy, dro-ski.

Social Security as of today is fully funded for another 26 years.

Trillions in shortfall do not come from providing pensions to our workers who have toiled for a lifetime. They have come from a Keynesian corporate nanny state / military complex.
 
#49
#49
utgibbs said:
Social Security as of today is fully funded for another 26 years.
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the set of assumptions underlying this sort of silliness would boggle the mind. How does something that is a direct transfer payment, reliant upon employment and income levels, become fully anything for any period of time?
 
#50
#50
BigPapaVol said:
the set of assumptions underlying this sort of silliness would boggle the mind. How does something that is a direct transfer payment, reliant upon employment and income levels, become fully anything for any period of time?
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There is a vault full of IOUs from Uncle Sam - surely they are worth something.


Also telling is gibbs repeated use of the term "pension" for SS. It is not a pension plan
 
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