Sour Grapes from Oregon

#529
#529
wheaton4prez said:
I really don't see how you could have confused what I wrote with any other meaning. You asserted that past glories are a factor "when comparing programs" and that many recruits cite that as a reason for choosing a program. I wrote that "the current state of the program and how they do right now, on the field, is more relevant than the past." In other words, while prestige points can be a factor, many other factors are a cumulative bigger influence (location, fit on team, team needs, relationship with coach, current state of team, stability, experience of staff, etc., etc.).




It absolutely does. Every D1 athlete would want to be on a team that wins the NC game. Every fan wants their team to win the NC game.

If no other factors were involved, a player isn't going to choose a team that won NC games in the past but won't with them over a team that hasn't won in the past but will with them.



I disagree. Recruiting involves many factors that paint the final perception of what a recruit thinks their experience will be like at any given program.

As I've written before, I think that UT benefited from being able to sell potential rather than track record as a group. Also, as I've pointed out, there is typically a lag between a good season and the affect on recruiting because recruiting for each class has typically begun before the season has even started. Kids have already established their lists before they have had a chance to see a team doing well.



Tell me about. Reading repeated posts about how many NC's UT has is boring and illustrates my point. You guys are the ones that want to talk about that, not me.

It's about both. This thread happens to be titled "Sour Grapes from Oregon" in reference to Oregon fans. The statements I have responded to have been UT fans talking down about the Oregon program. I have simply pointed out that, over the past 10 years, the programs have performed comparably. UT is in no position, given the current state of the programs, to be talking down about Oregon.





You couldn't have made a more hypocritical statement. On the one hand, you have been harping away at how important past glories are to recruits. In other words, past success is important to recruits. And now you are telling me that past success is not important to recruits.



I think it's more complicated than that.

They each had different circumstances. Kiffin inherited a team that was probably the most talented in the NCAA. They already had established a winning system with those players. It's difficult to determine whether he was merely pushing buttons or can take much responsibility for that success. If Kiffin was responsible for USC's success. One would think that the Raiders would have done a lot better than they did.

Chip Kelly took over a program that had substantially lower expectations. Most people had written off Dixon as having been a dud. They were pissed off that he missed football practice to play baseball and it was expected to be a bad year for Oregon. But, whatever changes Kelly made, they allowed Dixon to have the break-out year that everyone is familiar with. Dixon himself has attributed his success many times to Kelly.

We will have to see who proves to be the better coach in their current situations. Kiffin has shown that he can recruit. But, I think Kelly's circumstances and track record more clearly indicate what he brings to the table on the field.
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Just enjoy your amazing recruiting class comprised of three four star players and getting your ass kicked by USC every year. You know, since Bryce has signed with UT, even though we were second on his list, I think it is a good time to go back to your own site and not embarrass yourself further with your 10 page responses full of ********.
 
#530
#530
droski said:
the state of oregon produces almost zero div 1a players. eugene isn't exactly a prime destination either. i'd argue oregon has already topped out recruiting wise. they had some nice years when SC, Cal, and UCLA were in the toilet, but they just aren't going to outrecruit those 3 when they are competitive. if you look at the recruiting rankings the past 6 years you need to realize that oregon has far more guys not qualify than sc, cal or ucla. Their recruiting therefore has been around 4th in the pac-10. great for oregon certainly, but no where near where it needs to be to be an elite team.
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I do think there's a great chance that Oregon's 10-or-so year flash in the pan will come to end as the traditional Pac 10 teams, plus ASU continue to re-establish themselves. It will be interesting to see if the Huskies can get back on the national radar as well. It's also revealing that, even by Wheaton's admission, UT has done as well as they have during that period, as we're quite disappointed, while he keeps blowing his horn about. By all the objective data I've seen UT actually did better than Oregon in that same period, making all the horn-blowing that much more ignorant here.

I'm glad you're around to help us keep a realistic perspective on the Pac 10, Droski.

Before Wheaton came here, who knew Oregon was the rising 'elite' team in college football--and was going to do that with 2 and 3-star recruits? :no:

Btw... which Pac 10 team has the most homers? Is Wheaton like most Duck fans or do they have some who recognize the Ducks' true status (e.g. well outside elite) in the pecking order that is college football?
 
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#531
#531
wheaton4prez said:
Yes. I think I've already ceded that point. Having prestige and past glories is of benefit to a degree. It's just not the most influential factor at play. If UT lost half it's financial backing, had to use high-school facilities and coaches or lost every game for two years, their past accomplishments wouldn't do much to prevent the negative consequences.

No. I don't think UT is irrelevant at all. Just the glory-days arguments. UT is actually one of the most relevant teams in the game right now due to Kiffin's controversies and landing Brown. What he has done certainly worked to get the program in the spotlight. The problem is that it also inflated the stakes. You know what the reaction is going to be if he even has a small falter (as most new coaches are expected to have).
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That is really odd and had nothing to do with anything.

Yes, we do. If he doesn't win titles like he is expected to do, he will be fired.
 
#532
#532
JZVOL said:
Yes, we do. If he doesn't win titles like he is expected to do, he will be fired.
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It's like our expectations are so far beyond anything wheaton can comprehend. We fired a coach who had a better record in the last 10 years (not counting the tremendous success and NC he won at UT before that) for outperforming what wheaton keeps bragging about as Oregon accomplishments.

Moreover, Kiffin and Company fully realize the consequences of poor (or shall I say Oregon-like over the past 10 years) results at UT. They replaced the staff that did that. How could they not know?
 
#533
#533
BigPapaVol said:
There is a lot of verbiage here trying to convince someone that a backwater turdhole of a football program is a nationally relevant one.

In my mind, if that were true, this thread would have faded into the ether about 500 posts ago. Kinda like hot girls don't have to tell me they're hot.
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Excellent summary and analogy.

I'd add listening to an ugly duckling brag about how hot she is just makes her look that much worse. The extent of that effect is a function of the number of times she repeats it.

Eventually, it becomes a nagging ugly duckling who just can't accept being ugly, but can't do anything to grow into the beautiful swan it claims it already is.
 
#534
#534
utmba93 said:
Excellent summary and analogy.

I'd add listening to an ugly duckling brag about how hot she is just makes her look that much worse. The extent of that effect is a function of the number of times she repeats it.

Eventually, it becomes a nagging ugly duckling who just can't accept being ugly, but can't do anything to grow into the beautiful swan it claims it already is.
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No joke! Wheaton has completely ruined Oregon for me. I use to like to watch them play. I wanted them to make it to the NC game 2 years ago. Now, they could never play another game and I wouldn't even notice.

Know your place and don't try to act like something you are not.
 
#535
#535
chip kelly = charlie weiss

Cal's beaten oregon 3 years in a row (two of which were absolute arse kickings), 4 out of the last 5, has more wins, more nfl players in that time, yet you don't hear me saying cal is going ot be a national power. every year they are "one player away." why don't they ask why their depth sucks? comparing oregon to tenn is just ridiculous. something about living in the middle of nowhere makes fans delusional. see oregon, oregon state, and bsu fans.
 
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#536
#536
wheaton, here's a quote from a recruit: Moore claims to have been a "bandwagon fan" growing up and the Tennessee program he remembers was always competing at a high level.

"The tradition is big," Moore said. "I was a fan of Tennessee when I was a kid. It's been a tradition rich football school for a long time. I want to play on a big stage and that stadium is about as big as you can get."

Hmmm, I guess Tradition and what you did in the past does matter.
 
#537
#537
wheaton4prez said:
Yes. I think I've already ceded that point. Having prestige and past glories is of benefit to a degree. It's just not the most influential factor at play. If UT lost half it's financial backing, had to use high-school facilities and coaches or lost every game for two years, their past accomplishments wouldn't do much to prevent the negative consequences.
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What are the odds that that would ever happen? Not only to Tennessee, but to any D-1 program?
 
#538
#538
Another reason tradition is important is it proves, in this case UT, you can win at the school and the university is committed to excellence. Kiffin can sell to a recruit the fact this school was on top 10 years ago and it's the goal of the entire athletic department to get back to where we were.

Oregon says we've never gotten there before but we think we can and we want to.
 
#539
#539
wounded mullet said:
Im starting to think the Ducks are to the Pac 10 what the Gamecocks are to the SEC.
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No. Pac-10 doesn't have any coaching graveyards (ones that bad anyways) or fans that annoying.

As for this thread...

Cal-Oregon Pac-10 argument on a Tennessee board?

michaeljackson.gif
 
#541
#541
Just saying, I have a difficult time trying to find an argument like that here.

Even after Cal signed Kevin Riley.
 
#542
#542
No one in the Pacified 9 will be truly relevant in the national sense until the rest of the country doesn't automatically expect them to be beaten by USC. As long as everyone else is playing for 2nd place annually... the rest of the country will have very little interest. It could be argued that USC would have made two more BCS title games if the Pac10 weren't perceived to be a giant plus 9 also rans.

Wheaton, when Oregon starts having a legitimate expectation as a program that they should beat USC... then you'll take a step closer to where UT is. Phil Fulmer ranks among the winningest coaches in the NCAA. He won SEC and BCS championships. He had 10+ wins in 9 of his 16 seasons as a head coach (Oregon has 4 10 win seasons since 1945 and one of those was a 10 win season after the NCAA went to 12 games). I think he leads in SEC CG appearances by a pretty good margin(7). He avg'd about 9 wins per season. He had only two losing seasons in 16 years. He was a diehard, homegrown, lifelong Volunteer with incredible political ties. He ran a clean program and was a great ambassador for the school and SEC. He went to 14 bowl games in 16 years.

He is now UNEMPLOYED because UT EXPECTS to routinely beat and always compete with UF, Bama, LSU, UGA, etc. UT EXPECTS to win championships. If you are even remotely honest with yourself you'll admit that Oregon doesn't expect to beat USC... you hope to and even more you hope that someone will beat them enabling you to back door a Pac10 championship if you can manage to beat your 8 sisters.

Few people like to see USC get beat any better than me... so I really don't take any joy in your futility. But Oregon neither has the history nor the recent success to qualify it as a more prestigious program than UT. At the very best, you are equal in recent years but your history isn't even close... and again, 107K > 60K every day of the week... especially Saturday. Stated another way, by Oct 3rd UT will have played in front of more home fans than Oregon will all year.
 
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#543
#543
duckyness said:
Ridiculous to believe? What is?

Brown said himself that he would've picked Oregon were it not for Family(parents) and God and Prayer.


What's so hard to understand? Why can't southerners understand anything? LOL
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So if he were Godless and anti-family, he would be a duck?
 
#545
#545
From Oregons coach.
"I must not have done a good enough job educating him," Kelly said, "on how productive our backs are. Our offense produced two thousand-yard rushers this year" -- Jeremiah Johnson (1,201 yards) and LaGarrett Blount (1,002). "And I'm not exactly sure, but I think Jonathan Stewart was the 13th pick in the draft" after the '07 season. "I guess we gotta get a kid in the top 10."

Chip Kelly takes reigns from Mike Bellotti as Oregon coach - Austin Murphy - SI.com
 
#548
#548
In other words he might as well have just said something like - "Bryce Brown an idiot. It's obvious our school is 10x better than the other schools he was considering. How could he not choose Oregon? We are the best. We are superior. Bryce is dumb and bought into lies."

I mean really? Did he actually say that? Wow.
 
#549
#549
it's the same brash talk that Kiffin has been talking. It's a good way to get recruits. Get your name out there, brag about what you've done and reap the publicity it brings.

I'm sure he realizes that Tennessee has a much bigger history, but he can't let that be a hindrance to him. I applaud the Oregon coach for talking like that.
 
#550
#550
volfanbill said:
it's the same brash talk that Kiffin has been talking. It's a good way to get recruits. Get your name out there, brag about what you've done and reap the publicity it brings.

I'm sure he realizes that Tennessee has a much bigger history, but he can't let that be a hindrance to him. I applaud the Oregon coach for talking like that.
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Yeah, but nobody takes anything said from an Oregon coach seriously because they have clown uniforms.
 
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