Success in Afghanistan?

What is the single most important factor in what you would consider OEF a success?

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#26
#26
There is no way we can make them 100% ineffective for the simple reason that their ideology will remain, u have to kill the ideology and u cant
 
#27
#27
therealUT said:
2. Why just the Tora Bora region? The Taliban maintained a firm grip on Kabul, Kandahar, Gardez, Jalalabad, etc. While OBL was believed to be hiding in the caves in that region, why are you so positive that our nuclear weapons would have worked?
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I suppose if you had been alive during WWII you would have made a similar arguement as to why Truman shouldn't drop the bomb on Japan.
Tora Bora was where the location of their headquarters, there terrorist training camps, and their leader OBL. Again without financing and leadership the organization is weak.

therealUT said:
If killing OBL was the objective, then we would have had to send in ground forces to ensure that the objective was met.
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How many ground forces were sent in after Hiroshima?

therealUT said:
3. 60 days seems like an awfully arbitrary number for what would, fundamentally, be a routine set of airstrikes. Why even wait a week? More precise intel? Again, if you are going with overkill, go with it. Screw the intel and level the entire country...immediately!
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How many days after Truman dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan did it take them to surrender? I think it was around a week.

therealUT said:
4. Killing OBL would have crippled neither AQ nor the Taliban. While OBL certainly is a revered figurehead among the members of such camps, he is by no means the strategic and/or organizational mastermind he has been made out to be by the American populace.
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Without OBL financing the terrorists they are crippled. It takes money and leadership to run an organization.
 
#28
#28
oklavol said:
I suppose if you had been alive during WWII you would have made a similar arguement as to why Truman shouldn't drop the bomb on Japan.
Tora Bora was where the location of their headquarters, there terrorist training camps, and their leader OBL. Again without financing and leadership the organization is weak.
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Assuming I held a position of influence over Truman, I would have urged him to drop the bomb on Tokyo. We would not have had to waste a second run had that happened.

oklavol said:
How many ground forces were sent in after Hiroshima?
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This rebuke is not pertinent.


oklavol said:
How many days after Truman dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan did it take them to surrender? I think it was around a week.
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You really love comparing Afghanistan and Japan. I must have missed the part where there history and culture are so perfectly aligned....

oklavol said:
Without OBL financing the terrorists they are crippled. It takes money and leadership to run an organization.
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If you believe that OBL is the only wealthy person who would like to spend his money in an effort to cripple the US, then you are severely misled.
 
#30
#30
therealUT said:
4. Killing OBL would have crippled neither AQ nor the Taliban. While OBL certainly is a revered figurehead among the members of such camps, he is by no means the strategic and/or organizational mastermind he has been made out to be by the American populace.
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there will always be terrorism. cut one top guy down and another will emerge. it's almost like a hydra. the bet you can do is minimize their influence in certain areas and hope for the best. it will never be gone completely
 
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#31
#31
myrobbins7 said:
Well Obama is sending 17,000 more of our men over there. I thought Mr. Obama said he was going to bring our men home? Also, where's the outcry from Code Pink like they did with Mr. Bush?
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Obama has always stated we needed more troops in Afghanistan.
 
#32
#32
gsvol said:
Typical modern American dhimmi attitude, we should carpet bomb a couple of those countries, instead of bombing Christian countries on their behalf.

Your current POTUS seems intent on importing radical Hamas adherents from Palestine, while each week in America in hundreds of mosques, radical wahibism is preached to thousands of potential recruits.

I don't understand how the average American can be so ignorant and naive.
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A good look in the mirror and some soul searching may give you a better understanding:)
 
#33
#33
A guy I played ball with who happens to be brig/gen has been over there for years. His mom use to send clothes over there for the children. All I know is we stand to lose a lot more good men and we will be sending a lot more troops over there and it's a 3/4 year fail or no fail ordeal. Sometimes it seems we are facing a winless war.
 
#34
#34
myrobbins7 said:
Well Obama is sending 17,000 more of our men over there. I thought Mr. Obama said he was going to bring our men home? Also, where's the outcry from Code Pink like they did with Mr. Bush?
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No, he said he wanted to pull troops out of Iraq and focus them on the people that actually attacked us.
 
#39
#39
OWB said:
No, he said he wanted to pull troops out of Iraq and focus them on the people that actually attacked us.
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which is something new for a democrat. Wilson took us to war without being attacked. We were attacked by Japan, but FDR focused on Germany first. The Koreans and North Vietnamese never attacked the US and neither did the Bosnians.
 
#40
#40
MG1968 said:
which is something new for a democrat. Wilson took us to war without being attacked. We were attacked by Japan, but FDR focused on Germany first. The Koreans and North Vietnamese never attacked the US and neither did the Bosnians.
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Good move!

:hi:
 
#43
#43
Taking out OBL wont magically solve the problem, it would dent Al Queda but not demolish them, While he is cery rich and seen as the main man they still are receiving the profit of 90% of the worlds heroin - which will bring in a pretty penny - and have behind the scene leaders to keep up the fight.

Only way this war is won is by doing what we are already doing, attacking taliban while trying to prove to the locals that we are on their side and winning over their support. If they no longer live in fear of the tailban the recruiting for them will be harder where as the ANA will become stronger and ideally strong enough to keep up the fight well after coalition forces are withdrawn...ideally
 
#44
#44
english_vol said:
Taking out OBL wont magically solve the problem, it would dent Al Queda but not demolish them, While he is cery rich and seen as the main man they still are receiving the profit of 90% of the worlds heroin - which will bring in a pretty penny - and have behind the scene leaders to keep up the fight.
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True, but catching OBL in the radius of a lethal frag blast from a bomb sure would have a psychological effect.

...besides, revenge is sweet. Parading his sorry a$$ through New York sure would feel good.
 
#45
#45
english_vol said:
Only way this war is won is by doing what we are already doing, attacking taliban while trying to prove to the locals that we are on their side and winning over their support. If they no longer live in fear of the tailban the recruiting for them will be harder where as the ANA will become stronger and ideally strong enough to keep up the fight well after coalition forces are withdrawn...ideally
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Again, this strategy requires a multi-generational and overwhelming presence. That is not going to happen. Therefore, whatever we do in Afghanistan, is futile.
 
#46
#46
rjd970 said:
...besides, revenge is sweet. Parading his sorry a$$ through New York sure would feel good.
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How much Soldier sacrifice is that "feeling" worth to you?

Ultimately, that "feeling" will go away. Afghanistan will be left as the heterogeneous mess it has always been. The religious conservatives will once again take hold in Kabul and Kandahar. Girls will be taken out of schools. Those that had attended and shown promise will be executed. The infrastructure that the US will leave will be destroyed in the same way the infrastructure left by the USSR, Great Britain, and Alexander were destroyed.
 
#47
#47
therealUT said:
Again, this strategy requires a multi-generational and overwhelming presence. That is not going to happen. Therefore, whatever we do in Afghanistan, is futile.
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No doubt i'd estimate its atleast a 3 generation process...but it was started as a war on terrorism if the west are serious on trying to take out the taliban they have to prove it by staying there for the long haul


to rjd..parading OBL about would result in terror attacks in multiple terrorist attacks within the month, and set the process back longer than we have been involved.
 
#49
#49
english_vol said:
No doubt i'd estimate its atleast a 3 generation process...but it was started as a war on terrorism if the west are serious on trying to take out the taliban they have to prove it by staying there for the long haul
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It would take more than 3 generations. It would also take ridiculous troop numbers. The process would require a cohabitation between foreign troops and indigenous peoples at a level that is completely unprecedented in the history of warfare.

With little to no prospect of any real return on investment, I believe Afghanistan is best left as an outlaw state, often coming under aerial attacks from the powers that see it as a threat to stability.
 
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