"System" coach vs "Process" coach

#1
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sjt18

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#1
During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?
 
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#3
#3
Our tempo mixed with wide-splits, vertical concepts and a power running game is a type of system. It probably has helped to speed up our improvement. This offense has never been run with 4 and 5 star players before. The Briles system was with low 3 star players and Heupel's Mizzou and UCF teams had were probably only top 40 in the talent composite. I don't know if you will have a UGA or Bama ever run our type of system (due to their large defenses that will tire out too easily), but schools like Florida, Texas, Oregon, Auburn might copy us at some point.

The closest comparison to Heupel's run at UT might be Spurrier. He ran a totally out of the box pass happy scheme that flummoxed the SEC of the 90's. Most of the SEC defenses were still running the 5-2 defense when Spurrier arrived and he just killed them with his system mixed with top end talent.
 
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#4
#4
Brave Volunteer said:
So CJH doesn't have a process? He doesn't focus on building a culture? Please! That's just bullsh_t coach speak for "I'm not as strong at X's and O's so please allow me to fake it until I make it".
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My take exactly. Every system requires processes to run. Heupel has the mind and heart of a winner- and picks players that have the same. That is why we have success.

Remember, a lot of forum nerds and prognosticators say we are an air-raidy system, but we all know that's actually not true- we are very balanced, even leaning heavier towards the run. Our offense is about creating opportunity. If a coach isn't trying to scheme opportunity for his players, what's the point of him being there?
 
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#6
#6
To take a 3-7 team with probably near last in offense (120+) and change it to the Top offense in the nation in 2 years, you need a system; a system that works. Huepel has a system, it has worked for him for long, and is working here. It is the tempo aspect, the wide split receivers, the run focused spread etc but there is more.

His main strength is not system, it is the connection. As Paul Finebaum said recently that there is not a better player's coach in the nation than him. I think his players relate to him, play hard for him and play cohesively. That works for him the most. Look at how many discards, busts and low rated players he has turned into big contributors. And the fact that those are not only on offense but on defense as well says it is more than the offensive system, it is his overall system of connecting to his players.

I hope he remains the same.
 
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#8
#8
Yeah I hope they give him time. Time after time to losing to us. You KNOW tons of Florida game film was watched this week. Let’s face it, you could spend about one film session on APU. The cool thing is Florida had a quality opponent and probably called the entire playbook so they didn’t get beat and they did. Florida’s obvious game plan early is to load the box and see if Milton can make good throws. If he starts picking them apart and they back off the LOS, LOOK OUT!!! It’ll be a blow out. If they load the box and Milton is over throwing everywhere, we’re gonna have problems.
 
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#10
#10
sjt18 said:
During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?
Click to expand...
The thing about process is the coaches need to show improvement to recruits/fans for the process to work and be given the time to implement the full extent of the process. Heupel has both, a system and process that is working to date, imo. He also happens to run an offensive system that is elite if the players execute.

Napier's process if they struggle the remainder of the year (given they struggled with a 1st rd draft pick at QB last year) will not be shown a lot of leniencies with the UF fans. The biggest improvement in their teams for coaches are typically from year 1 to year 2. At schools like UK, their fans are willing to (albeit reluctantly) accept the longer processes. A coach at UF or UT is not going to get that same luxury of a 10-year stint with only two 10-win seasons in that timeframe. The other 8 seasons have been 5 or more losses. Napier may have a process, but if he doesn't show improvement soon, their fans that he hasn't lost yet will begin to turn on him by the end of the season. Even if he makes it through this year, a few losses next year and he won't make it to game 12 of 2024 imo.
 
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#11
#11
Brave Volunteer said:
So CJH doesn't have a process? He doesn't focus on building a culture? Please! That's just bullsh_t coach speak for "I'm not as strong at X's and O's so please allow me to fake it until I make it".
Click to expand...
I actually agree which is why I kind got aggravated to start with.

My way of kind of rationalizing the difference is to compare "Mr Process" himself- Butch Jones to Heupel. Jones talked about working on the "fine details" of playing winning football. He talked a lot about using analytics and stats and continuous improvement ideas. All useful but NOT the "end" in and of themselves. Heupel has an end in mind. The "process" is incidental to getting to the desired end.

Whereas the "process" coach treats his process as the thing that cannot change, Heupel looks at the "system" or perfecting of it as the focus. The method or process to get there isn't sacred. The "sacred" includes the values that facilitate the quest.

I've probably thought about this a little too much but it interested me how they defined the two guys.

FWIW, if you can't coach... there's no process that's going to make you successful. Again, look at Jones.
 
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#12
#12
much quicker to rebuild a program in todays world of transfers and nil.the days of 5 year rebuilds are over.you know by the 2nd year wheather you picked the right guy to run your program.lucky for us (finally) we picked the right guy.my biggest observation of coach hype,he picks smart fast players that have legitimate talent that fits his schemes.
 
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#13
#13
OP, Napier has the same attitude Butch Jones has. I can still remember how that worked out. The UF staff has to come up with some excuses for their lack of performance. I just can't wait until we beat the brakes off the Gators.
 
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#14
#14
volsrock09 said:
The thing about process is the coaches need to show improvement to recruits/fans for the process to work and be given the time to implement the full extent of the process. Heupel has both, a system and process that is working to date, imo. He also happens to run an offensive system that is elite if the players execute.

Napier's process if they struggle the remainder of the year (given they struggled with a 1st rd draft pick at QB last year) will not be shown a lot of leniencies with the UF fans. The biggest improvement in their teams for coaches are typically from year 1 to year 2. At schools like UK, their fans are willing to (albeit reluctantly) accept the longer processes. A coach at UF or UT is not going to get that same luxury of a 10-year stint with only two 10-win seasons in that timeframe. The other 8 seasons have been 5 or more losses. Napier may have a process, but if he doesn't show improvement soon, their fans that he hasn't lost yet will begin to turn on him by the end of the season. Even if he makes it through this year, a few losses next year and he won't make it to game 12 of 2024 imo.
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That is the thing though. I have long argued against "patience" when it comes to coaches. It isn't because I hated any of them or wanted change for the sake of change. "Time" when it comes to trying to us a "process" to turn a program around is like a cure that is also a poison. If the healing takes too long (usually 3 or 4 years max) then the cure starts to kill the patient. Without showing results a coach loses credibility with recruits and fans which makes regression a lot more likely than progression.

There are places where a coach can get "time" and wait for some underrated group of players to put them on the map. Others where a weak schedule allows them to show progress like Beamer did at Va Tech years ago or to some extent how Dabo did it at Clemson or Carroll did it at USCw.

IMO, you can never allow a guy who doesn't show coaching talent to have more time. Jones underperformed his talent in every year. In 2013 he inherited an OL made up of NFL caliber players. I think Tiny was the only one who didn't play in the NFL and that was due to injury. Yet his "amazing system" produced a bottom 3rd O. He had several future NFL players on D and still had a bad D. Talent briefly covered his incompetence but those in charge should have seen that he was not a good coach after the first year and definitely no later than the 2nd year. The rationalizations were that he had to be given time to "install his system", "purge the poison of Dooley out of the program", "get his own players", etc. None of that was true. He just sucks at coaching football.

I think UF may be in the same place right now. Don't get me wrong... I thoroughly enjoy it and especially since some of their fans were so condescending during UT's down year suggesting that our expectations shouldn't be any higher than what Jones was giving us. I hope they keep him and his "process" for a very long time. He will get talent. Talent can win some games. Jones got talent and won some games. But coaching can lose games... and we saw that repeatedly with Jones too.
 
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#15
#15
posivol said:
much quicker to rebuild a program in todays world of transfers and nil.the days of 5 year rebuilds are over.you know by the 2nd year wheather you picked the right guy to run your program.lucky for us (finally) we picked the right guy.my biggest observation of coach hype,he picks smart fast players that have legitimate talent that fits his schemes.
Click to expand...
All of those things emphasize a guy who can coach over a guy who is just a good salesman to recruits. My thinking (and hope) is that UF is making precisely that mistake when pointing to Napier's recruiting ranking as a reason to keep him.
 
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#16
#16
The system is the process. Heupel is building a reputation as a coach that will help a player be successful. When Tennessee is loaded with 4 and 5 star players 3 nad 4 levels deep, the process will still be the system.
 
#17
#17
Volanooga2521 said:
Our tempo mixed with wide-splits, vertical concepts and a power running game is a type of system. It probably has helped to speed up our improvement. This offense has never been run with 4 and 5 star players before. The Briles system was with low 3 star players and Heupel's Mizzou and UCF teams had were probably only top 40 in the talent composite. I don't know if you will have a UGA or Bama ever run our type of system (due to their large defenses that will tire out too easily), but schools like Florida, Texas, Oregon, Auburn might copy us at some point.

The closest comparison to Heupel's run at UT might be Spurrier. He ran a totally out of the box pass happy scheme that flummoxed the SEC of the 90's. Most of the SEC defenses were still running the 5-2 defense when Spurrier arrived and he just killed them with his system mixed with top end talent.
Click to expand...
As much as I enjoy his scheme... IMHO it isn't close to Heupel's greatest strength. I think he has outstanding leadership ability. I honestly think he could win with almost any offensive "system" in large part because he has the ability to get guys to focus on and believe on a shared vision/goal/end.
 
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#20
#20
The issue right from the start is that system and process are not opposite ends of the spectrum. That's a falsely constructed relationship and it suggests that being a system coach is somehow gaining success through a gimmick of some kind.

Coach JH has a system AND a process to run that system. BOTH are needed. Butch Jones had a system and a process. They both sucked because he was a sh!t coach.

What Tennessee finally proved is that it doesn't take 3-5 years to build a program back to success. It just takes hiring a talented coach who has actual new ideas about how to defeat other teams. Alabama proved this year's ago with Saban but we didn't listen.

Every coach has a system or scheme. Some are more familiar/traditional and some are more modern. They are all schemes though.

Process is about how you go about executing your system but in those comments the speaker was trying to throw shade and use the term to say process means a more traditional approach.

When a coach says "this is a process" what he's really saying is I'm trying to buy at least 3 years of getting paid huge bucks before I'm found to be a fraud and shown the door. Or I don't have an actual plan I'm just riding this thing out and relying on luck and good recruiting to save me.
 
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#21
#21
sjt18 said:
Agree. But my take on it is that these "process" coaches become so focused on the "process" that it becomes an end of itself.
Click to expand...

If your processes are wrong or even if they are right but you struggle to get widespread buy-in from your players, then the goal will not be achieved. This is what it sounds like is happening with Napier. Either his processes aren't good enough at an SEC level or his players aren't entirely on board... or both.

Heupel, in contrast, in a very short time has taken an awful culture and turned it into one that is both competitive and supportive in the locker room. His guys are 100% bought in on the offensive side with excellent processes and an excellent system. Defense is still a bit more of a work in progress, but maybe this is the year it all comes together. In Beasely's interview yesterday he indicated that this team is significantly more unified than it was even last year.
 
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#23
#23
sjt18 said:
During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?
Click to expand...
The system or scheme or whatever anyone tries to call it ran for nearly 300 last week. Next week they may throw for 400. That’s my kind of system. He is just a good coach and has a great staff. It’s just that simple. GBO
 
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#24
#24
volmandu said:
To take a 3-7 team with probably near last in offense (120+) and change it to the Top offense in the nation in 2 years, you need a system; a system that works. Huepel has a system, it has worked for him for long, and is working here. It is the tempo aspect, the wide split receivers, the run focused spread etc but there is more.

His main strength is not system, it is the connection. As Paul Finebaum said recently that there is not a better player's coach in the nation than him. I think his players relate to him, play hard for him and play cohesively. That works for him the most. Look at how many discards, busts and low rated players he has turned into big contributors. And the fact that those are not only on offense but on defense as well says it is more than the offensive system, it is his overall system of connecting to his players.

I hope he remains the same.
Click to expand...

He is an incredible coach. Period. No modifier needed.

Seriously, let’s consider:

Develops a great culture? Check
Develops players? Check
Develops solid young men? Check
Team plays hard? Check
Team plays sound and disciplined? Check
Great strategist? Check
Wins? Check
Represents the University well? Check

What more is there?

He’s not just a great “ players” coach, Paul. He’s a great coach.
 
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#25
#25
Every coach has a process and preferred system they like to use so when the talking heads start referring to a coach as a "system" or "process" coach they are really just filling air time with jabber.
 
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