"System" coach vs "Process" coach

[sjt18]

If your processes are wrong or even if they are right but you struggle to get widespread buy-in from your players, then the goal will not be achieved. This is what it sounds like is happening with Napier. Either his processes aren't good enough at an SEC level or his players aren't entirely on board... or both.

Heupel, in contrast, in a very short time has taken an awful culture and turned it into one that is both competitive and supportive in the locker room. His guys are 100% bought in on the offensive side with excellent processes and an excellent system. Defense is still a bit more of a work in progress, but maybe this is the year it all comes together. In Beasely's interview yesterday he indicated that this team is significantly more unified than it was even last year.

I think we're tracking together.

I think the danger with these "process" coaches is that how do you "buy into" a process if that's the effective "end" you are shooting for. I think it would be like two S&C coaches. One says, "Do it right" without setting a goal for achieving a weight. The other says, "I want you to bench XXX and here are some ways we will try out".

This seems to be a carryover from the business world. Some companies have become so focused on their "process" that they forgot to make money. That may have been part of the problem at Twitter. Musk cut a bunch of staff that I'm sure were "great" at some process... that didn't really make them better.

 

[sjt18]

He is an incredible coach. Period. No modifier needed.

Seriously, let’s consider:

Develops a great culture? Check
Develops players? Check
Develops solid young men? Check
Team plays hard? Check
Team plays sound and disciplined? Check
Great strategist? Check
Wins? Check
Represents the University well? Check

What more is there?

He’s not just a great “ players” coach, Paul. He’s a great coach.

And the remarkable thing is that most of us ranged from angry to suspicious to indifferent when he was hired. Most of us probably thought it was another failed coaching search.... that UT had once again settled for a lesser coach.

 

[Orangeblooded615]

That is exactly what Vols fans said with Dooley and Butch and Cornbread. I've never seen a culture like the one Heup has built here. They should be worried where they were and where we are.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I think we're tracking together.

I think the danger with these "process" coaches is that how do you "buy into" a process if that's the effective "end" you are shooting for. I think it would be like two S&C coaches. One says, "Do it right" without setting a goal for achieving a weight. The other says, "I want you to bench XXX and here are some ways we will try out".

This seems to be a carryover from the business world. Some companies have become so focused on their "process" that they forgot to make money. That may have been part of the problem at Twitter. Musk cut a bunch of staff that I'm sure were "great" at some process... that didn't really make them better.

This is exactly the correct take. We've all seen businesses, like Sears, that had a great business model (process) for years but who failed at actually being businesspeople because they worshipped the "process" too much and never responded to the changes in the world.

Heupel came to the SEC with an offensive system he thought would work here. Heupel also came to UT, looked at the culture, looked at the mistrust of the players and fans in coaches, and Coach Josh Heupel started building a culture of trust and teamwork first.

I remember raising my eyebrows at dodgeball, at team building small groups, etc. I wondered "how can these guys not understand and accept that at this level? Team should be embedded at this level." It wasn't and Heupel saw it.

Coaching, good coaching, is first about seeing where your team is as a whole and laying a foundation to put your football process on. Heupel is better than Napier because he's done that. Napier is a "shortcut coach" who comes in with a new recruiting focus, new schemes, new football ideas..... and that's it.

Coach Josh Heupel came to UT to do way more than just run a high tempo spread offense. He came to put down a foundation to build WHATEVER offense UT needs to run to win. His offense will change, I believe, because it will have to over the years. That's what separates Heupel from lots of coaches. He's not coaching X and O's only. He knows that stuff can and will change but what can't change is the foundation of teamwork.

 

[GetEmVols]

During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?

Gator fans just need to give Napier about 5-6 years to build this thing. Let’s not rush and fire him.

 

[Gandalf]

Process, system, scheme - doesnt matter. The one thing that seems consistent is that by the end of the 2nd year, there will be clear evidence that this is a winning coach and a program turnaround. If there isnt, or if its mixed, you got a dud.

 

[Stephen Gray]

"Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own." - Bruce Lee

“You must understand that there is more than one path to the top of the mountain” - Musashi

"Do nothing that is of no use.” - Musashi

 

[eskimovol]

I do think they approach things differently. Napier seems to want players to conform to his system. It might be why he refuses to let go of play calling, he can’t trust other people to call plays the way he calls plays.

Whereas in a recent article, with either Golesh or Hazel I think, they mentioned that whenever they came up with a play Heupel always asks can that player execute it the best. If not, what plays would he thrive in and what player(s) is better suited to the previous play.

 

[JRich]

You're either good at it or you're not.

F*** a process, f*** a system.

 

[SN-A-C Orange]

OP, Napier has the same attitude Butch Jones has. I can still remember how that worked out. The UF staff has to come up with some excuses for their lack of performance. I just can't wait until we beat the brakes off the Gators.

Have they done the trash can thing, yet?

 

[PEPPERJAX]

During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?

While we are comparing both coaches at their respective schools, let's take a look into system vs process.

Vols: Butch was a "process" guy while Heupel is a "system" guy.

UF: Spurrier was system coach and Napier equals process.

I am not sure what Napier is telling the Florida faithful but if it is anything similar to Butch's trust the process accompanied with an inability to coach his way out of a wet paper bag, then UF is in trouble.

It remains to be seen if Heupel will have any where near the success of Spurrier , however, both won right away with what they inherited. Good coaches do the best with the hand they are dealt.

 

[J C Higgins]

A system is made up of multiple process. So are they Heupel focuses on controlling the overall outcome and Napier is micro managing one part at a time with no vision on how it effects the overall picture?

Correct. A person's system doesn't exclude his/her ability to establish and execute one or more processes.

 

[SN-A-C Orange]

The Florida fans I know are already on the edge of the boat ... preparing to jump.

 

[sjt18]

While we are comparing both coaches at their respective schools, let's take a look into system vs process.

Vols: Butch was a "process" guy while Heupel is a "system" guy.

UF: Spurrier was system coach and Napier equals process.

I am not sure what Napier is telling the Florida faithful but if it is anything similar to Butch's trust the process accompanied with an inability to coach his way out of a wet paper bag, then UF is in trouble.

It remains to be seen if Heupel will have any where near the success of Spurrier , however, both won right away with what they inherited. Good coaches do the best with the hand they are dealt.

I aggravated a lot of "give Butch more time" folks by simply saying that Great coaches, coach great. They coach great with great talent or poor talent. They always make the sum of the parts better.

 

[PEPPERJAX]

I aggravated a lot of "give Butch more time" folks by simply saying that Great coaches, coach great. They coach great with great talent or poor talent. They always make the sum of the parts better.

Many of my friends that are die hard fans like me checked out after the Oklahoma loss in Neyland. We had more than enough talent to win but Butch was not a good in game coach during many big moments. What is exciting now is that Heupel recruits very well. Two back to back classes in the top 12 for 2022 & 2023. The current class for 2024 most likely finishes in the top 10 or heck, maybe top 5. Combine top notch talent with his coaching ability and look out.

 

[aRmo]

I actually agree which is why I kind got aggravated to start with.

My way of kind of rationalizing the difference is to compare "Mr Process" himself- Butch Jones to Heupel. Jones talked about working on the "fine details" of playing winning football. He talked a lot about using analytics and stats and continuous improvement ideas. All useful but NOT the "end" in and of themselves. Heupel has an end in mind. The "process" is incidental to getting to the desired end.

Whereas the "process" coach treats his process as the thing that cannot change, Heupel looks at the "system" or perfecting of it as the focus. The method or process to get there isn't sacred. The "sacred" includes the values that facilitate the quest.

I've probably thought about this a little too much but it interested me how they defined the two guys.

FWIW, if you can't coach... there's no process that's going to make you successful. Again, look at Jones.

Huepel is able to mold his system around his players. Instead of players to his system. The offense changed ever so slightly last year when Joe would come in for hooker in clean up. even this year. the routes are different. Joe is able to fit the ball in tighter windows over the middle. Yes Hendon did throw it over the middle but not as much as Joe. Its like Huepel calls plays to your strengths to mask your weakness. WHICH IS WHAT GOOD COACHES DO. Im rambling. carry on.

 

[volmanjr]

That is exactly what Vols fans said with Dooley and Butch and Cornbread. I've never seen a culture like the one Heup has built here. They should be worried where they were and where we are.

according to "primetime" culture don't matter.....

 

[1974Vol]

During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?

Process, system, blah blah at the end of the day its just word salad. The modern game is SOOOO driven by QB play that the rest of it just comes into play at the margins. Yes you have to have the other pieces, but you CAN have them and if you don't have a well coached GOOD QB you're still gonna be a 7-5 to 9-3 team. CJH went out day one and got two QBs in Hooker and now Milton that have made the difference in our program. We had some talent here in the other positions even after the portal exodus but it couldn't fully come to bear on the outcome of games because under Pruitt we just didn't execute consistently at QB. Napier had Richardson but didn't know how to fully utilize him. Its no coincidence that Jones' only decent years were with Dobbs at the helm. Pruitt never had a QB and wouldn't have known what to do with one if he had. Saban and Smart are not offense / QB guys but have managed to recruit talented QBs and get OC's and QB coaches that know what they're doing. The Dawgs may take a step backwards if Bobo can't find another gear from what he's done in the past. Not saying they'll be bad, but I will be surprised if they don't drop a game or two this year. CJH has had quick success here because we had some SEC level talent in the program already and Josh got a couple of straws to stir that drink. Napier...ummm not so much!

 

[butchna]

A successful HC is never all one way or the other. Your top line X’s and O’s coaches (like Heupel) also need to embed the system to where the older players are helping teach it and holding each other accountable. That requires knowing what they want and what it looks like. Coaching icons like Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells couldn’t scheme their way out of a paper bag, but were genius at identifying players who would buy in and flourish. Other icons like Tom Landry and Bill Belichick were ace coordinators before getting their shot and knew both offense and defense and had their thumb in every facet of the program…but were at their best when they trusted their successful hires. Without his own studied process, Heupel would be at Drinkwicz level. The benchmark HC (at least in college) is Saban and he could coordinate any defense to success and particularly develop defensive backs but is lauded for the self-coined The Process. Other HC’s out scheming his recent hires on offense and defense and meeting closer to the middle on culture and development have leveled out his previously almost unfair advantages somewhat.

 

[butchna]

according to "primetime" culture don't matter.....

He fixin to larn! Keepin receipts!

 

[FLVOL_79]

During a Southeastern 14 youtube podcast about Napier last night they said UF fans see Heupel's quick success and are asking why Napier can't do the same. One of the guys said they would have to have patience because Napier focused on "process" vs Heupel who is a "system" coach. They kept talking about Napier building the right kind of culture if UF fans would just give him time.

At first I was kind of aggravated thinking he was just attributing the success to Heupel's O and tempo. Maybe that was what he was saying. But after thinking about it again, I'm not sure it is a bad description.

Heupel does have a "system" but it isn't limited to scheme. He has a "system" or standard for pretty much everything they do. The culture has changed radically but it might not be inaccurate to say he doesn't buy into "manage the process" type coaching that seems to roll out of the mouths of most coaches these days.

The interesting thing to me... is most of those "process oriented" coaches... are failing.

Thoughts? Did anyone else see that video?

Literally the same thing we all heard as Vol fans from the last 3 coaches..and looked how well that turned out.

That being said, bless Napier and UF fans hearts.

 

[MannyD]

Culture is behavior, nothing more. Have your staff model and insist on the behaviors they want to see and you'll build it. Building culture and having "system" schemes are not mutually exclusive. I suspect all the talk of culture in relation to organizations is nonsense. It is no doubt important, but most people use it as a crutch for fluff speak. Be a good coach, get talent in the door, and mind the pulse of your organization (culture). Simple, not easy though. You can either do it or you can't.

 

[volsrock09]

That is the thing though. I have long argued against "patience" when it comes to coaches. It isn't because I hated any of them or wanted change for the sake of change. "Time" when it comes to trying to us a "process" to turn a program around is like a cure that is also a poison. If the healing takes too long (usually 3 or 4 years max) then the cure starts to kill the patient. Without showing results a coach loses credibility with recruits and fans which makes regression a lot more likely than progression.

There are places where a coach can get "time" and wait for some underrated group of players to put them on the map. Others where a weak schedule allows them to show progress like Beamer did at Va Tech years ago or to some extent how Dabo did it at Clemson or Carroll did it at USCw.

IMO, you can never allow a guy who doesn't show coaching talent to have more time. Jones underperformed his talent in every year. In 2013 he inherited an OL made up of NFL caliber players. I think Tiny was the only one who didn't play in the NFL and that was due to injury. Yet his "amazing system" produced a bottom 3rd O. He had several future NFL players on D and still had a bad D. Talent briefly covered his incompetence but those in charge should have seen that he was not a good coach after the first year and definitely no later than the 2nd year. The rationalizations were that he had to be given time to "install his system", "purge the poison of Dooley out of the program", "get his own players", etc. None of that was true. He just sucks at coaching football.

I think UF may be in the same place right now. Don't get me wrong... I thoroughly enjoy it and especially since some of their fans were so condescending during UT's down year suggesting that our expectations shouldn't be any higher than what Jones was giving us. I hope they keep him and his "process" for a very long time. He will get talent. Talent can win some games. Jones got talent and won some games. But coaching can lose games... and we saw that repeatedly with Jones too.

I agree with you. In Napiers case, if he takes another season to get his process to work he will be fired. So far after one game it looked like much of the same if not worse than they were last year. Which doesn’t bode well for Napier, imo. I was saying coaches need to show enough improvement to be given the time to implement their process. If they don’t and if UF struggles mightily, Napier will be on the hot seat before the year ends. By year 3, a coach is who he is. If he’s still quoting process and blah blah blah at that time, it’s time to move on.

 

[Ned Ray McWorkher]

Ole Billy Boy (and his 5 offensive line coaches) is not long for this league if he's making excuses like that.

 

[BigVol88]

I think calling Heupel a "system" coach sells him short. System implies rigidness or formulaic. There are certainly key characteristics of his offenses, but he has shown to be adaptive. Heck, I know it's early, but we saw how the offense adapted to VA and Clemson without Hooker.

Point is, Heupel is adaptive. He takes what defenses give him and uses the players he has to maximum effect. When I hear "system" I just think of coaches who are so married to their playbook, that don't even dare to run simple plays that would work.

Also, as far as culture and managing people, the guy is honestly probably one of the most socially intelligent coaches I have seen here. Definitely can't say that about the last 3. Heupel simply gets people and knows how to talk to people. Sign of a good communicator. While it's a "soft skill" and not really related to football, it makes all of the difference.