Taking jumpers early in the shot clock

[madtownvol]

I always want to screm when commentators--like Jackson and Kesling tonight-- cluck their tongues when the LVs miss a wide open midrange jumper early in the shot clock and proclaim "that is not what you want; you should have five or six passes before shooting." This of course, is a variation on Holly's oft repeated lament from last year about the LV's “quick shooting the basketball” [To her credit, she eventually stopped making that complaint once it became clear that the LVs did better in a faster tempo offense].

In this ideal pass-pass-pass-pass scenario, a team whips the ball around five times, with all players getting a touch and culminating in an uncontested lay-up. "WHOOOHOOO! That is how it is done; beautiful basketball!" But that idea is actually a fairly rare occurrence in actual games because there is another team playing defense that can get in the way of those passing lanes or not lose players. That is why such plays when they do happen, invariably make a sportscenter highlight. It is like completing a team completing an 80 yard TD pass and announcers treating that as what should happen on every offensive play.

And for the LVs in particular, when they don’t take that initial open jump shot and pass the ball multiple times around the perimeter, what often happens?: a forced and contested shot at the buzzer or throwing the ball into a triple teamed Mercedes Russell.

That point aside, is a wide open 15 foot jump shot any more open or easier to make at 10 seconds into the shot clock or 25 seconds after a round of passes? An open shot is an open shot. I would love to see any statistical support for the implicit argument that a wide open shot is less likely to be made early in the shot clock, than later. Really, the commentators should be noting that a team (like the LVs) needs to hit those wide open shots, rather than saying, "oh, if they had only passed the ball six times first...."

It’s a very outmoded way of thinking to boot. Back in the early 2000’s Mike D’Antonio revolutionized the NBA with the realization that more shots (all things being equal) meant more points. So, he had the Phoenix Suns push tempo and take open 3 and jumpers whenever they could and the earlier in the clock the better.

Of course, you want your rebounders to be in position but in most cases, that does not require a whole series of passes that slows the offense down. The goal is for everybody to play faster and get to their spots sooner. And if you shoot a decent %, problem solved all the way around.

 

[Pappy]

I always want to screm when commentators--like Jackson and Kesling tonight-- cluck their tongues when the LVs miss a wide open midrange jumper early in the shot clock and proclaim "that is not what you want; you have should have five or six passes before shooting." This of course, is a variation on Holly's oft repeated lament from last year about the LV's “quick shooting the basketball” [To her credit, she eventually stopped making that complaint once it became clear that the LVs did better in a faster tempo offense].

In this ideal pass-pass-pass-pass scenario, a team whips the ball around five, with all players getting a touch and culminating in an uncontested lay-up. WHOOOHOOO! That is how it is done; beautiful basketball But that idea is actually a fairly rare occurrence in actual games because there is another team playing defense that can get in the way of those passing lanes or not lose players. That is why such plays when they do happen, invariably make a sportscenter highlight. It is like completing a team completing an 80 yard TD pass and announcers treating that as what should happen on every offense play.

And for the LVs in particular, when they don’t take that initial open jump shot and pass the ball multiple times around the perimeter, what often happens?: a forced and contested shot at the buzzer or throwing the ball into a triple teamed Mercedes Russell.

That point aside, is a wide open 15 foot jump shot any more open or easier to make at 10 seconds into the shot clock or 25 seconds after a round of passes? An open shot is an open shot. I would love to see any statistical support for the implicit argument that a wide open shot is less likely to be made early in the shot clock, than later. Really, the commentators should be noting that a team (like the LVs) needs to hit those wide open shots, rather than saying, oh, if they had only passed the ball six times first....

It’s a very outmoded way of thinking to boot. Back in the early 2000’s Mike D’Antonio revolutionized the NBA with the realization that more shots (all things being equal) meant more points. So, he had the Phoenix Suns push tempo and take open 3 and jumpers whenever they could and the earlier in the clock the better.

Of course, you want your rebounders to be in position but in most cases, that does not require a whole series of passes that slows the offense down. The goal is for everybody to play faster and get to their spots sooner. And if you shoot a decent %, problem solved all the way around.

you must have never watched a Dean Smith coached team

 

[Volfan2012]

I'm not against taking an open shot anytime in the shot clock. Taking shots early in transition with no one there to rebound is something we do often. We have players on this team that should never take a shot outside of the paint. I saw a lot of bad shot selection last night on our part and Appy State as well.
I saw a lot of times also when a player was driving against three players with wide open players on the perimeter and they failed to kick the ball back out. This team never works to get Dunbar any open shots. They seem to far intent on making some sort of spectacular play themselves regardless of how well they are being guarded.
The passing is ridiculous from Diamond and quite often Reynolds and Middleton.
Tennessee is not as talented as in past years and a lot of the mistakes they make on the court are mental and I think they give away 15 to 20 possessions a game with bad shot selection and poor passing not to mention the numerous blown easy layups.

 

[Bah Humbug]

Holly don't know what you guys are talking about...

 

[LadyVol1908]

Holly don't know what you guys are talking about...

Man you've had an obvious MO every since you made this account.....almost every one of your post has said something negative....save a post about how great UCONN is and another post wanting Balcomb to come coach us.....you just came here to troll huh????

 

[RollerVol]

Holly don't know what you guys are talking about...

ok, ghost of Christmas present...go Bah Humbug somewhere else...

GO LADY VOLS!

 

[T.J.]

Holly don't know what you guys are talking about...

:lolabove:

 

[T.J.]

I always want to screm when commentators--like Jackson and Kesling tonight-- cluck their tongues when the LVs miss a wide open midrange jumper early in the shot clock and proclaim "that is not what you want; you have should have five or six passes before shooting." This of course, is a variation on Holly's oft repeated lament from last year about the LV's “quick shooting the basketball” [To her credit, she eventually stopped making that complaint once it became clear that the LVs did better in a faster tempo offense].

In this ideal pass-pass-pass-pass scenario, a team whips the ball around five, with all players getting a touch and culminating in an uncontested lay-up. WHOOOHOOO! That is how it is done; beautiful basketball But that idea is actually a fairly rare occurrence in actual games because there is another team playing defense that can get in the way of those passing lanes or not lose players. That is why such plays when they do happen, invariably make a sportscenter highlight. It is like completing a team completing an 80 yard TD pass and announcers treating that as what should happen on every offense play.

And for the LVs in particular, when they don’t take that initial open jump shot and pass the ball multiple times around the perimeter, what often happens?: a forced and contested shot at the buzzer or throwing the ball into a triple teamed Mercedes Russell.

That point aside, is a wide open 15 foot jump shot any more open or easier to make at 10 seconds into the shot clock or 25 seconds after a round of passes? An open shot is an open shot. I would love to see any statistical support for the implicit argument that a wide open shot is less likely to be made early in the shot clock, than later. Really, the commentators should be noting that a team (like the LVs) needs to hit those wide open shots, rather than saying, oh, if they had only passed the ball six times first....

It’s a very outmoded way of thinking to boot. Back in the early 2000’s Mike D’Antonio revolutionized the NBA with the realization that more shots (all things being equal) meant more points. So, he had the Phoenix Suns push tempo and take open 3 and jumpers whenever they could and the earlier in the clock the better.

Of course, you want your rebounders to be in position but in most cases, that does not require a whole series of passes that slows the offense down. The goal is for everybody to play faster and get to their spots sooner. And if you shoot a decent %, problem solved all the way around.

My exact sentiments! A good read, indeed.

Thank you!

 

[Coach Jumper]

I always want to screm when commentators--like Jackson and Kesling tonight-- cluck their tongues when the LVs miss a wide open midrange jumper early in the shot clock and proclaim "that is not what you want; you have should have five or six passes before shooting." This of course, is a variation on Holly's oft repeated lament from last year about the LV's “quick shooting the basketball” [To her credit, she eventually stopped making that complaint once it became clear that the LVs did better in a faster tempo offense].

In this ideal pass-pass-pass-pass scenario, a team whips the ball around five, with all players getting a touch and culminating in an uncontested lay-up. WHOOOHOOO! That is how it is done; beautiful basketball But that idea is actually a fairly rare occurrence in actual games because there is another team playing defense that can get in the way of those passing lanes or not lose players. That is why such plays when they do happen, invariably make a sportscenter highlight. It is like completing a team completing an 80 yard TD pass and announcers treating that as what should happen on every offense play.

And for the LVs in particular, when they don’t take that initial open jump shot and pass the ball multiple times around the perimeter, what often happens?: a forced and contested shot at the buzzer or throwing the ball into a triple teamed Mercedes Russell.

That point aside, is a wide open 15 foot jump shot any more open or easier to make at 10 seconds into the shot clock or 25 seconds after a round of passes? An open shot is an open shot. I would love to see any statistical support for the implicit argument that a wide open shot is less likely to be made early in the shot clock, than later. Really, the commentators should be noting that a team (like the LVs) needs to hit those wide open shots, rather than saying, oh, if they had only passed the ball six times first....

It’s a very outmoded way of thinking to boot. Back in the early 2000’s Mike D’Antonio revolutionized the NBA with the realization that more shots (all things being equal) meant more points. So, he had the Phoenix Suns push tempo and take open 3 and jumpers whenever they could and the earlier in the clock the better.

Of course, you want your rebounders to be in position but in most cases, that does not require a whole series of passes that slows the offense down. The goal is for everybody to play faster and get to their spots sooner. And if you shoot a decent %, problem solved all the way around.

I don’t often agree with you, MT, but when you are spot on, you are spot on.
I have been schooling AM on quicker decisions and not stifling the offensive flow.
When you dribble to the top of the key and the PF sets a screen for you to curl on, and its open TAKE IT!
The elbow-curl is one of the best shots against the zone. Once the defense starts expecting the curl-jumper, then you set a high-paint cut to the spot that opens when the defender moves from.
Aside from that, the bankshot at the middle hashmark is the next step and the backdoor cut is the last step.
If you go through these chronological patterns against the zone, you can dismantle it.
An open look is always a good shot, early or 6-passes into the set, doesn’t matter… An open look is an open look.


It makes me want to "screm" too, when an open look is passed up just because it is early in the set.

 

[armchair]

Yes, of course: If you've got a good look, and you (as the player) are confident that you can make it, take the damn shot--and make it. If you don't take it, there is no certainty--at all--that you'll get a better shot after a series of passes, and indeed, what often happens is that somebody has to throw up a bad shot as the shot clock is winding down. If you run an offense that is efficient and precise and you pass well and have confidence in getting a layup after several passes, sure, keep the ball and do that.

But we do not run an efficient, crisp offense; we do not pass particularly well. We are not Notre Dame or UConn--and haven't been for 15 years. The only reason Warlick, and analysts, complain about taking shots early in a possession is because we don't make them often enough. We haven't been a good shooting team in AGES. We've had some good shooting teams in the last 20 years--when we have players that can score inside consistently--but we've been a poor /outside/ shooting team for a long time.

I mean, if you're at UT and are a guard/wing player and you can't make an open 15-footer at least 40 percent of the time--and probably more--then you shouldn't be playing for us. But we don't. What is DD's shooting percentage this year--or Reynolds, or Middleton? They must all be under 40 percent--and of course that is all shots (including layups/paint shots), not just outside jumpers. I think it's a confidence thing with a lot of our players--they don't have enough of it. That is where coaching comes in. And it's not just shooting. It is very obvious that we are not a confident basketball team. I think UT's confidence level has been pretty fragile for years; it's why in the last couple of years, we often fell apart when things started to go wrong. You could see it in the Elite 8 game against Maryland: as the game went on, our offensive confidence slowly ebbed and we became almost hapless--hard to watch. If you are open, take the shot. Make the shot.

 

[LVJeff]

I always want to screm when commentators--like Jackson and Kesling tonight-- cluck their tongues when the LVs miss a wide open midrange jumper early in the shot clock and proclaim "that is not what you want; you have should have five or six passes before shooting." This of course, is a variation on Holly's oft repeated lament from last year about the LV's “quick shooting the basketball” [To her credit, she eventually stopped making that complaint once it became clear that the LVs did better in a faster tempo offense].

In this ideal pass-pass-pass-pass scenario, a team whips the ball around five, with all players getting a touch and culminating in an uncontested lay-up. WHOOOHOOO! That is how it is done; beautiful basketball But that idea is actually a fairly rare occurrence in actual games because there is another team playing defense that can get in the way of those passing lanes or not lose players. That is why such plays when they do happen, invariably make a sportscenter highlight. It is like completing a team completing an 80 yard TD pass and announcers treating that as what should happen on every offense play.

And for the LVs in particular, when they don’t take that initial open jump shot and pass the ball multiple times around the perimeter, what often happens?: a forced and contested shot at the buzzer or throwing the ball into a triple teamed Mercedes Russell.

That point aside, is a wide open 15 foot jump shot any more open or easier to make at 10 seconds into the shot clock or 25 seconds after a round of passes? An open shot is an open shot. I would love to see any statistical support for the implicit argument that a wide open shot is less likely to be made early in the shot clock, than later. Really, the commentators should be noting that a team (like the LVs) needs to hit those wide open shots, rather than saying, oh, if they had only passed the ball six times first....

It’s a very outmoded way of thinking to boot. Back in the early 2000’s Mike D’Antonio revolutionized the NBA with the realization that more shots (all things being equal) meant more points. So, he had the Phoenix Suns push tempo and take open 3 and jumpers whenever they could and the earlier in the clock the better.

Of course, you want your rebounders to be in position but in most cases, that does not require a whole series of passes that slows the offense down. The goal is for everybody to play faster and get to their spots sooner. And if you shoot a decent %, problem solved all the way around.

I have heard Holly saying more than once that she wants the team to take the first open shot - after looking inside first.

 

[SoDak_LV_Fan]

I think the "green light" rule of shooting whenever you're open should go for certain players, if that is within their range.
Dunbar is a catch and shoot player. She doesn't need much space but she can't create her own shot and as other teams scout her as the long range threat, she NEEDS to shoot regardless of the shot clock.
Jordan, Meme, and Diamond can create their own shots and they don't have a particular high shooting percentage, so why not reverse the ball, set ball screens to get a higher percentage shot inside the paint.

 

[Ed Weeks]

Maybe looking at what a team (runs for offense) that wins 4 consecutive NC's would be of value.

 

[LVJeff]

Maybe looking at what a team (runs for offense) that wins 4 consecutive NC's would be of value.

How about looking at a team that won 10 national titles in 12 seasons, including seven straight?

 

[LVJeff]

I think the "green light" rule of shooting whenever you're open should go for certain players, if that is within their range.
Dunbar is a catch and shoot player. She doesn't need much space but she can't create her own shot and as other teams scout her as the long range threat, she NEEDS to shoot regardless of the shot clock.
Jordan, Meme, and Diamond can create their own shots and they don't have a particular high shooting percentage, so why not reverse the ball, set ball screens to get a higher percentage shot inside the paint.

None of these players can make shots consistently. Their shooting percentage is woeful. Their timing, anticipation, and communication are virtually non-existent. It's 5 players wearing the same color uniform but that's about it as far as being on the same team.

 

[Ed Weeks]

LVJ--How is that working for ya?

 

[Nuyoika]

The "WHAT" (the jump shot itself) and the "WHEN" (early in the shot clock) really don't mean a thing if the "WHO" (Is this the player you want taking the shot?), "WHERE" (Is this player consistent from this area of the floor or is this at least a spot they have put reps into shooting from prior?), and the "WHY"(Was this our best option?) questions have been answered in a manner that pleases the coaching staff.

It is often more the case that the who, where, and why are either all wrong or mostly wrong so the commentators fall back to saying "That's not what you want." In reality if a wide open jumper by the wrong person in a spot on the floor they don't shoot well from is the best you can do then so be it. It is bound to happen on occasion. If it happens regularly then player either needs more reps from that area or they should have pulled it back out and worked for a better opportunity.

 

[bobkitten]

I really don't care what the commentators say--as long as they agree with me!

 

[LVJeff]

LVJ--How is that working for ya?

How is what working for me?

 

[HoopDR]

Yes, of course: If you've got a good look, and you (as the player) are confident that you can make it, take the damn shot--and make it. If you don't take it, there is no certainty--at all--that you'll get a better shot after a series of passes, and indeed, what often happens is that somebody has to throw up a bad shot as the shot clock is winding down. If you run an offense that is efficient and precise and you pass well and have confidence in getting a layup after several passes, sure, keep the ball and do that.

But we do not run an efficient, crisp offense; we do not pass particularly well. We are not Notre Dame or UConn--and haven't been for 15 years. The only reason Warlick, and analysts, complain about taking shots early in a possession is because we don't make them often enough. We haven't been a good shooting team in AGES. We've had some good shooting teams in the last 20 years--when we have players that can score inside consistently--but we've been a poor /outside/ shooting team for a long time.

I mean, if you're at UT and are a guard/wing player and you can't make an open 15-footer at least 40 percent of the time--and probably more--then you shouldn't be playing for us. But we don't. What is DD's shooting percentage this year--or Reynolds, or Middleton? They must all be under 40 percent--and of course that is all shots (including layups/paint shots), not just outside jumpers. I think it's a confidence thing with a lot of our players--they don't have enough of it. That is where coaching comes in. And it's not just shooting. It is very obvious that we are not a confident basketball team. I think UT's confidence level has been pretty fragile for years; it's why in the last couple of years, we often fell apart when things started to go wrong. You could see it in the Elite 8 game against Maryland: as the game went on, our offensive confidence slowly ebbed and we became almost hapless--hard to watch. If you are open, take the shot. Make the shot.

Percent All Shots / 3pts
Russell -- 52.5 / N/A
DeShields-- 41.9 / 37.5
Nared-- 43.9 / 31.0
Middleton-- 41.7 / 48.1
Reynolds-- 33.9 / 23.1
Jackson-- 33.3 / 40.0
Dunbar-- 35.0 / 28.1
Nunn-- 43.3 / N/A
Harris-- 50.0 / N/A

 

[madtownvol]

you must have never watched a Dean Smith coached team

Dean Smith stopped coaching in 1997 and the game has changed a lot in 20 years. What is your point?

 

[Pat4life]

Taking shots early against a good team or an average is usually a lost. They will make you pay, but of course if its that's player is hot and/or have the hot hands, that is another story, feed them.

Holly don't change yo philosophy mid season, its confusing to players, of course Diamond wants to run, cos she is a volume scorer, Mercedes and Nared had five less shot attempts and one less point total.

Quick shots are just like turnovers, especially if u don't have a person in rebounding position, play smart, that's all, plus quick shots they lead to transition baskets, you don't make your opponents work on the defense, now your opponent spend the whole game playing offense. WE have to make teams defend too.

 

[Ed Weeks]

Taking shots early against a good team or an average is usually a lost. They will make you pay, but of course if its that's player is hot and/or have the hot hands, that is another story, feed them.

Holly don't change yo philosophy mid season, its confusing to players, of course Diamond wants to run, cos she is a volume scorer, Mercedes and Nared had five less shot attempts and one less point total.

Quick shots are just like turnovers, especially if u don't have a person in rebounding position, play smart, that's all, plus quick shots they lead to transition baskets, you don't make your opponents work on the defense, now your opponent spend the whole game playing offense. WE have to make teams defend too.

good post

 

[37620VOL]

Players need simple rules to live by. My rule is each shot equals one point. So if you find yourself with a 3 pointer you can make 33% of the time, you take the shot. If you find yourself with a 2 pointer you can make 50% of the time, you take the shot.

At least one shot per possession. No turnovers. At the end of the game you should have more points than possessions.

Except for a few scenarios, never pass up a good shot as defined above, even early in the shot clock.

To get good shots we:
1. Run the fast break.
2. Run the secondary break.
3. Run the set offense.
4. Get the ball to a creator, like Diamond, late in the shot clock.

The goal is to never get to #4.

 

[LVJeff]

Players need simple rules to live by. My rule is each shot equals one point. So if you find yourself with a 3 pointer you can make 33% of the time, you take the shot. If you find yourself with a 2 pointer you can make 50% of the time, you take the shot.

At least one shot per possession. No turnovers. At the end of the game you should have more points than possessions.

Except for a few scenarios, never pass up a good shot as defined above, even early in the shot clock.

To get good shots we:
1. Run the fast break.
2. Run the secondary break.
3. Run the set offense.
4. Get the ball to a creator, like Diamond, late in the shot clock.

The goal is to never get to #4.

I like your post but allow me to expand: Players have to be shown how to do something - telling them "If you find yourself with a 2 pointer you can make 50% of the time, you take the shot" I think is insufficient. For this to happen the players have to be shown how - where to go, when to go there, where to throw the ball, and when, etc. Holly has told the team she wants them to take the first open shot after looking inside. Based on what I see happening on the floor, she hasn't shown them how to do that very well.

Re the statement: "To get good shots we:
1. Run the fast break."

This requires defense and rebounding, two things the team is very poor at, partly because of a lack of physical skill (lateral quickness), physical exertion (they don't work at it), and partly because of poor mechanics, which is coaching - they haven't been shown sufficiently well enough where to go on defense, when to go there, how to help defend, etc.