The NCAA is a shameful organization.

#51
#51
onefesternation said:
I think it is a lack of institutional control that DID lead to advantages on the field. They didn't cover this up to protect their "friend" Sandusky. They covered it up, because they knew what would happen to the program if it got out. They let children be raped, because they didn't want the program to suffer. You don't think the program should suffer now?
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It's not that I don't want the program punished. The issue is that the NCAA is overstepping its bounds.
 
#52
#52
Pepe_Silvia said:
It's not that I don't want the program punished. The issue is that the NCAA is overstepping its bounds.
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1. Who should punish the program?
2. How has the NCAA overstepped its bounds, when they haven't done anything besides announce a press conference for tomorrow morning?
 
#54
#54
onefesternation said:
1. Who should punish the program?
2. How has the NCAA overstepped its bounds, when they haven't done anything besides announce a press conference for tomorrow morning?
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1. They will be punished when they're shelling out millions of dollars to the victims. This a legal - not an NCAA - issue.

2. Don't play naive. At this point there is little doubt that the NCAA is going to dole out severe punishment.
 
#55
#55
The NCAA is on some Judge Dredd shiz right now.

It's an unprecedented circumstance and therefore we will see unprecedented repercussions.

I firmly believe that pulling scholarships and banning bowl games is foolish and a complete waste of time and energy.

Fine the school an inordinate amount of money and let the justice system handle the rest.

Penn State not going to a bowl game for a few years isn't serving a purpose to those harmed, it's only hurting the student-athletes who had absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
 
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#56
#56
onefesternation said:
I think it is a lack of institutional control that DID lead to advantages on the field. They didn't cover this up to protect their "friend" Sandusky. They covered it up, because they knew what would happen to the program if it got out. They let children be raped, because they didn't want the program to suffer. You don't think the program should suffer now?
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Exactly. The Big 10 is probably gonna hit em too. Good.
 
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#57
#57
Pepe_Silvia said:
1. They will be punished when they're shelling out millions of dollars to the victims. This a legal - not an NCAA - issue.

2. Don't play naive. At this point there is little doubt that the NCAA is going to dole out severe punishment.
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1. So if your child gets raped, you would be okay with everything as long as you got paid millions of dollars? Sure, the guy that did it is going away for life now. But the program that they tried so hard to save, and their efforts to save it CAUSED YOUR CHILD TO BE RAPED, and you're okay with nothing happening to the program? You're okay with them getting what they wanted, because you got millions of dollars? Who even knows how much the victims will get in their civil suits? How do you guess at what a jury is going to give someone that got raped as a child? What's the measure for damages?

2. It is going to be severe punishment, but they have only said it will be severe and unprecedented. If it's unprecedented, well then I guess we don't have a frickin clue what it's gonna be, do we? You can listen to the "sources" if you want, but I'm gonna wait 9 hours, because it's NINE hours. Why is there such a need to speculate about what it's gonna be when we're gonna know in 9 hours?
 
#58
#58
onefesternation said:
1. So if your child gets raped, you would be okay with everything as long as you got paid millions of dollars? Sure, the guy that did it is going away for life now. But the program that they tried so hard to save, and their efforts to save it CAUSED YOUR CHILD TO BE RAPED, and you're okay with nothing happening to the program? You're okay with them getting what they wanted, because you got millions of dollars? Who even knows how much the victims will get in their civil suits? How do you guess at what a jury is going to give someone that got raped as a child? What's the measure for damages?

2. It is going to be severe punishment, but they have only said it will be severe and unprecedented. If it's unprecedented, well then I guess we don't have a frickin clue what it's gonna be, do we? You can listen to the "sources" if you want, but I'm gonna wait 9 hours, because it's NINE hours. Why is there such a need to speculate about what it's gonna be when we're gonna know in 9 hours?
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So the NCAA handing down some punishments is going to make everything better?

And how has Penn State gotten what they wanted? They now have a permanent stain on their university.
 
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#59
#59
I would rather the NCAA mete out punishment with one powerful guy doing what he thinks is appropriate rather than the awful bureaucratic morass than it has been. At least there's a face and therefore obvious responsibility then. Much of the ridiculousness of the NCAA has been due to its deliberate facelessness. I'm in favor of having a commissioner in charge rather than a committee. If this is a first step toward that, great.

As far as PSU itself goes -- it's small-minded to insist that legal crimes and NCAA violations are mutually exclusive. Just because covering up a crime to benefit the football program is a felony doesn't mean that it also isn't an ethical violation too. If a lawyer gets busted for DUI, he gets prosecuted for the crime and he gets disbarred too. That's essentially what's happening here.

Penn Sate is being punished because the whole university grew to be so deferential to football that even child rape took a back seat. If that's not an institutional control problem, what is?
 
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#60
#60
Vercingetorix said:
I would rather the NCAA mete out punishment with one powerful guy doing what he thinks is appropriate rather than the awful bureaucratic morass than it has been. At least there's a face and therefore obvious responsibility then. Much of the ridiculousness of the NCAA has been due to its deliberate facelessness. I'm in favor of having a commissioner in charge rather than a committee. If this is a first step toward that, great.
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This may sound good, but do you think there could be a problem if, in the future, a commissioner has to determine sanctions for his alma mater or a rival?
 
#61
#61
The NCAA stepping out of the box for this and sanctioning Penn State without an investigation is troubling to me. I can see where the OP is coming from.

On the other hand, this does clearly represent a LOIC and as such the AA's hands are tied. They have to act.
 
#62
#62
milohimself said:
Programs do not enable child molestors. People do.

The people who enabled Sandusky are dead or will rot in prison.
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No, you have an weak and inept board of trustees that failed to provide governance and oversight that is largely still intact. Their failures are the root of the problem.
 
#63
#63
tvolsfan said:
This may sound good, but do you think there could be a problem if, in the future, a commissioner has to determine sanctions for his alma mater or a rival?
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All that conflict of interest already goes on behind the scenes now. At least if you have one guy taking responsibility for it, it'll be far more out in the open.
 
#64
#64
Pepe_Silvia said:
So the NCAA handing down some punishments is going to make everything better?

And how has Penn State gotten what they wanted? They know have a permanent stain on their university.
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Does sending a murderer to jail for life or to the chair make everything better? Those that commit wrongs are punished because 1. they committed a wrong, and 2. to deter them from committing a wrong again. If the NCAA doesn't punish them, what have they learned? What's to keep them from doing something similar again?

Permanent stain? Please. There are probably millions of people in this country that don't even know what happened at Penn State. SMU got the death penalty from the NCAA about 25 years ago. Have you ever heard anyone talk about an SMU recruit and say "Yeah, you know he's getting paid" even as just a joke? If there's one thing people can do, it's forget. Five years from now, some will have forgotten. Ten years from now, more will have forgotten. And many won't forget, but that doesn't mean it's a permanent stain on the University. Most will just say "I can't believe Paterno and those guys allowed that to go on...But they're gone now." How is that a permanent stain?
 
#65
#65
txbo said:
No, you have an weak and inept board of trustees that failed to provide governance and oversight that is largely still intact. Their failures are the root of the problem.
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They didn't provide governance and oversight because the whole damn school was bent over for Joe Paterno and football. This wasn't four rogue guys. This was the whole institution. Even the janitors knew not to say anything.
 
#66
#66
Leopold Stotch said:
The NCAA stepping out of the box for this and sanctioning Penn State without an investigation is troubling to me. I can see where the OP is coming from.

On the other hand, this does clearly represent a LOIC and as such the AA's hands are tied. They have to act.
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If I'm Penn State, I would rather take a worse punishment now than have a two year investigation into the details of how exactly we allowed children to be raped lead to a little bit softer of a punishment later. Take the punishment now and start moving on.
 
#67
#67
Something tells me the "lack of institutional control" provision is going be more used and abused than the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.
 
#68
#68
Some general comments.

NCAA rules specifically state that actual NCAA rules need to have been violated for LOIC to have occurred.

Nobody on the Penn State board ever knew of Sandusky's actions or the cover-up, that we know of. Therefore nobody on the Penn State board committed a crime.

The point I was trying to get around to, though, was since the NCAA decided they could get involved, regardless of whether or not I think it's a horrible decision, the absolute worst thing they could have done was to hand out anything less than a death penalty.
 
#69
#69
milohimself said:
Some general comments.

NCAA rules specifically state that actual NCAA rules need to have been violated for LOIC to have occurred.

Nobody on the Penn State board ever knew of Sandusky's actions or the cover-up, that we know of. Therefore nobody on the Penn State board committed a crime.

The point I was trying to get around to, though, was since the NCAA decided they could get involved, regardless of whether or not I think it's a horrible decision, the absolute worst thing they could have done was to hand out anything less than a death penalty.
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If (big if) the "sanctions" leaked by CBS are accurate, then the punishment seems to be at least on par with the death penalty. So they may have at least done that right. . .
 
#75
#75
milohimself said:
If any of you have been keeping up with the Penn State/Sandusky saga on here, you've probably seen my numerous posts saying that the NCAA should have no authority to punish Penn State for the actions of Sandusky and Paterno and the men who covered for him and were complicit in the rape of children.

I still maintain that. If the NCAA had stuck to what its charter says, particularly the explicit parts, it shouldn't have done anything here. This is still purely a criminal justice matter.
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Agree 100%, Penn State should fight these penalties with all the legal means at their disposal. They are just pandering to public opinion, nothing else. And it is true, they have absolutely no authority in this matter. But the lynch mob has been heard.

And to the nitwits that say PSU must be punished to prevent this from happening again, thats like saying we needed the Patriot Act to make terrorism illegal.
 
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