The next big bubble... student loans???

#176
#176
Wireless1 said:
I do not want to ride in an elevator that a philosophy major had anything to do with!
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I would assume those who move on to engineering also obtain further education. I specifically had in mind software engineering and computer science though--fields that rely heavily on logic.
 
#178
#178
Wafflestomper said:
I think very few of them actually go on to teach. Lots become lawyers. There are places for philosophy majors in business and engineering as well.
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Engineering not really unless back it up with another technical based skill.

And if you’re using the Philosophy degree as a law school prerequisite then their making money on the JD degree not the Philosophy degree.
 
#179
#179
Wafflestomper said:
I would assume those who move on to engineering also obtain further education. I specifically had in mind software engineering and computer science though--fields that rely heavily on logic.
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It’s possible they could wind up in software if they had like a math minor or some other technical backfill.

Philosophy can teach critical thinking if they pay attention in class. But without further knowledge related to a technical field they simply don’t have the basic skills to apply the developed thought process.

At the end of the day the difference in the junior engineer and senior engineer which warrants the pay difference is “judgement”. Most of the kids coming out of school now are better founded in theory on me if I haven’t used the specific topic recently. How to apply the theory and how to judge the results that’s experience which equates to $$$
 
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#180
#180
NorthDallas40 said:
In what field of practice is a Philosophy major making $70-80k? Ph D and teaching at a college?
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You would be surprised how many general officers in the military have philosophy degrees.

Personally, I took one philosophy course in college and dropped it. It is the only class I ever dropped. The first day the professor asked the class what color the wall was (it was white) then he shined a green light on it. The class then proceeded to argue for the next 45 minutes on what color the wall really was.

I was out after that.
 
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#181
#181
NorthDallas40 said:
Engineering not really unless back it up with another technical based skill.

And if you’re using the Philosophy degree as a law school prerequisite then their making money on the JD degree not the Philosophy degree.
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Yes, but it was implied that getting a philosophy degree is useless. If a philosophy degree can position you to get into law school/business school/etc. then it's useful. If you're spending $200k on an undergrad in philosophy then that may be a problem but I wouldn't completely disregard the utility of the field as a whole.
 
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#182
#182
Wireless1 said:
Watch Tennessee Promise, the schools will find another revenue stream from you after about 2 years. They did it with the Lottery, within 3 years my out of pocket was higher with the Lottery than it was before, and that was with the scam qualifications that bait and switched students into school.
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Our son started college the first year of the lottery scholarship, I found it interesting that costs for tuition/fees/dorm and meal plan had gone up a little more over the year before than what the lottery scholarship was paying.
 
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#183
#183
rjd970 said:
You would be surprised how many general officers in the military have philosophy degrees.

Personally, I took one philosophy course in college and dropped it. It is the only class I ever dropped. The first day the professor asked the class what color the wall was (it was white) then he shined a green light on it. The class then proceeded to argue for the next 45 minutes on what color the wall really was.

I was out after that.
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I took one also. PSY 101 Elementary Logic. In electrical engineering we call it Boolean Algebra. I took it as a senior elective. My final average was over 100 and I’m pretty sure the rest of the class despised me and the other EE who destroyed the curve 😂
 
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#184
#184
Wafflestomper said:
Yes, but it was implied that getting a philosophy degree is useless. If a philosophy degree can position you to get into law school/business school/etc. then it's useful. If you're spending $200k on an undergrad in philosophy then that may be a problem but I wouldn't completely disregard the utility of the field as a whole.
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Ok. To clarify a basic BA in Philosophy with no backfill minor or double major in a useful skill is useless if it isn’t used to leverage into a useful grad degree such as law or medicine or something else. I kinda assumed that was rather obvious. But Ok... better now?
 
#185
#185
rjd970 said:
You would be surprised how many general officers in the military have philosophy degrees.

Personally, I took one philosophy course in college and dropped it. It is the only class I ever dropped. The first day the professor asked the class what color the wall was (it was white) then he shined a green light on it. The class then proceeded to argue for the next 45 minutes on what color the wall really was.

I was out after that.
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Oh and on the generals having philosophy degrees while I wasn’t aware of that I don’t think it really impacts the real skills they develop in senior military leadership roles which seem to seamlessly transition over into management positions
 
#186
#186
NorthDallas40 said:
Oh and on the generals having philosophy degrees while I wasn’t aware of that I don’t think it really impacts the real skills they develop in senior military leadership roles which seem to seamlessly transition over into management positions
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A lot of the officers I met that were planning on making a career out of it got the quickest, easiest degree they could.
 
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#188
#188
NorthDallas40 said:
Ok. To clarify a basic BA in Philosophy with no backfill minor or double major in a useful skill is useless if it isn’t used to leverage into a useful grad degree such as law or medicine or something else. I kinda assumed that was rather obvious. But Ok... better now?
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That's fine, but most (or all) people who get a BA in philosophy don't expect to get out of school and get a job as a philosopher. I'd think that would be obvious. The idea is that you either go on to use it in conjunction with another degree or to satisfy some minimum requirement for employment (i.e., at least a 4-year degree). In either sense it isn't useless.
 
#189
#189
hog88 said:
A lot of the officers I met that were planning on making a career out of it got the quickest, easiest degree they could.
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I don’t know that I would consider the easiest, it does teach problem solving and thinking through a problem. In terms of life skills, I would call problem solving probably the most important single skill to have. I think there are several humanities and art degrees that would probably be an easier path.

I think Colin Powell had a degree in Geology or something. Not sure how hard that is, but it shows how little the actual degree means in the military. It’s just the fact of having one that matters.

But, as far as marketing yourself as a philosopher, I agree, it is hard to really get paid to do it as a pure profession.
 
#190
#190
Wafflestomper said:
That's fine, but most (or all) people who get a BA in philosophy don't expect to get out of school and get a job as a philosopher. I'd think that would be obvious. The idea is that you either go on to use it in conjunction with another degree or to satisfy some minimum requirement for employment (i.e., at least a 4-year degree). In either sense it isn't useless.
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So we’re just using Philosophy to pick on as the example here. There are many other BA’s that are just as applicable and I guess that was the more basic point.

By the time a young person is of college age they are considered an adult. They are responsible for their choices. If that choice results in a huge amount of college debt racked up with no viable career opportunities resulting from their degree, they own that situation and are responsible for payment of loans they received. I don’t feel compelled to just vacate them. I think that was the basic point of this discussion yet the target of our ridicule seems to always gravitate to philosophy as the example 🤷‍♂️
 
#191
#191
After I retire I'm thinking of adding (BS Eng, MBA) an anthropology degree..... study how no matter how good mankind has it, we find a way to screw it up.
 
#192
#192
rjd970 said:
I don’t know that I would consider the easiest, it does teach problem solving and thinking through a problem. In terms of life skills, I would call problem solving probably the most important single skill to have. I think there are several humanities and art degrees that would probably be an easier path.

I think Colin Powell had a degree in Geology or something. Not sure how hard that is, but it shows how little the actual degree means in the military. It’s just the fact of having one that matters.

But, as far as marketing yourself as a philosopher, I agree, it is hard to really get paid to do it as a pure profession.
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What’s kinda ironic is the major complaint I have in mentoring junior engineers? It isn’t base theory they all passed that wicket to get their degree. It’s almost always critical thinking. The ability to set aside personal bias and objectively dissemble a problem to its base parts and disassociate your own contributions to the situation and be objective. It really isn’t an easy thing to do to be able to stand up to your peers and mentors and say “yeah I screwed up but I know how to fix it”. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to say we expect them to screw up or we aren’t pushing them hard enough. If we put them in a situation where their screw up causes serious delays or costs then that’s our fault not theirs.
 
#194
#194
rjd970 said:
I don’t know that I would consider the easiest, it does teach problem solving and thinking through a problem. In terms of life skills, I would call problem solving probably the most important single skill to have. I think there are several humanities and art degrees that would probably be an easier path.

I think Colin Powell had a degree in Geology or something. Not sure how hard that is, but it shows how little the actual degree means in the military. It’s just the fact of having one that matters.

But, as far as marketing yourself as a philosopher, I agree, it is hard to really get paid to do it as a pure profession.
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Philosophy isn’t a bad degree if you’re planning on an advanced degree or further career training as in what a military officer receives.
 
#195
#195
Rasputin_Vol said:
It sucks. I realize that. But these kids were given pizz poor advice by the adults around them. Why should we hold 18-21 year olds to a higher standard than we would someone twice their age that ran up the same amount of credit card debt? The option you can give the people who owe all of this student loan debt is that they will lose their degree and licenses associated with debt forgiveness. That would be only fair. But at least you are not burdening a significant number of the next generation with all of this debt that cannot go away.
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Why hold any debts then? You can get bad advice on any loan.

The feds need to stop guaranteeing it, and let the lenders choose who is a good/safe loan and who isnt. Maybe set some standard rate across the country, but it's up to the lenders to choose who actually gets t.
 
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#197
#197
rjd970 said:
You would be surprised how many general officers in the military have philosophy degrees.

Personally, I took one philosophy course in college and dropped it. It is the only class I ever dropped. The first day the professor asked the class what color the wall was (it was white) then he shined a green light on it. The class then proceeded to argue for the next 45 minutes on what color the wall really was.

I was out after that.
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Physics. He needs some.
 
#198
#198
LouderVol said:
Why hold any debts then? You can get bad advice on any loan.

The feds need to stop guaranteeing it, and let the lenders choose who is a good/safe loan and who isnt. Maybe set some standard rate across the country, but it's up to the lenders to choose who actually gets t.
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Yep. Let the market apply their risk models and handle accordingly.

Plus I’d submit it’s good information for a young college student to hear “we aren’t giving you any money for your chosen degree because we don’t think you will be able to pay it back.” That’s a necessary wake up call I’d submit.
 
#200
#200
NorthDallas40 said:
Yep. Let the market apply their risk models and handle accordingly.

Plus I’d submit it’s good information for a young college student to hear “we aren’t giving you any money for your chosen degree because we don’t think you will be able to pay it back.” That’s a necessary wake up call I’d submit.
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The one helpful bit of economics in high school I got was dealing with amortization tables. That dealt with houses, but the teacher mentioned how you could apply it to anything.
Me being a nerd I of course played with it and how small changes up front had huge changes on the back side.
 
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