The Official 2014 Offseason Thread

#2,351
#2,351
So Lebron is a clear #1, and has been for a few years (I'd say 6 or more, most would probably say 4 years or so)....what is the longest anyone dominated the league as the best player?

Meaning, most agree MJ was the best player ever, but for the first half of his career, most everyone would have said Bird or Magic was the best in the league. MJ was only seen as the undisputed best for about 5 seasons, right?
 
#2,353
#2,353
n_huffhines said:
So Lebron is a clear #1, and has been for a few years (I'd say 6 or more, most would probably say 4 years or so)....what is the longest anyone dominated the league as the best player?

Meaning, most agree MJ was the best player ever, but for the first half of his career, most everyone would have said Bird or Magic was the best in the league. MJ was only seen as the undisputed best for about 5 seasons, right?
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MJ was the best player every year he was in Chicago, except his second when he got hurt.
 
#2,356
#2,356
BadJerry20 said:
MJ was the best player every year he was in Chicago, except his second when he got hurt.
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My point is what was the consensus at the time? Few thought he was the best player in 1987. He won his first MVP in '88.

What I'm trying to get at is very few guys have had a decent reign at all as "undisputed" best player. Only a handful of guys have achieve undisputed status. I would say Magic did a few years, Hakeem did for 2 years, MJ, Lebron...I can't think of anybody else in the modern era.

Also, I would say Jordan was best player from '88-'92 and '96. Those are clearly his best years, IMO.
 
#2,358
#2,358
n_huffhines said:
My point is what was the consensus at the time? Few thought he was the best player in 1987. He won his first MVP in '88.
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What I'm trying to get at is very few guys have had a decent reign at all as "undisputed" best player. Only a handful of guys have achieve undisputed status. I would say Magic did a few years, Hakeem did for 2 years, MJ, Lebron...I can't think of anybody else in the modern era.

Also, I would say Jordan was best player from '88-'92 and '96. Those are clearly his best years, IMO.
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Meh MVPs are bunk. Nash had back to back so by that criteria he should be on the list. Who was better than MJ in 93,97, & 98? Cause I'm pretty sure it was still consensus MJ. Shaq 00, 01, 02 was probably considered the best by most people. Most people would probably say Kobe for a few years, though I'd disagree.
 
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#2,360
#2,360
BadJerry20 said:
Meh MVPs are bunk. Nash had back to back so by that criteria he should be on the list. Who was better than MJ in 93,97, & 98? Shaq 00, 01, 02 was probably considered the best by most people.
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I don't think you understand my point, and I'm disappointed that I haven't gotten it across yet.

I'm talking about consensus perception, and if you haven't won an MVP yet, there is no way you can be considered to be perceived as "undisputed best".

I'm not saying an MVP trophy makes you the best. I'm saying you won't be viewed as the undisputed best unless you have at least one.

Steve Nash doesn't qualify for the discussion, because even when he was winning MVPs, it was pretty highly disputed that he was the best. A lot of people would have argued Kobe, those years.
 
#2,361
#2,361
n_huffhines said:
I don't think you understand my point, and I'm disappointed that I haven't gotten it across yet.

I'm talking about consensus perception, and if you haven't won an MVP yet, there is no way you can be considered to be perceived as "undisputed best".

I'm not saying an MVP trophy makes you the best. I'm saying you won't be viewed as the undisputed best unless you have at least one.

Steve Nash doesn't qualify for the discussion, because even when he was winning MVPs, it was pretty highly disputed that he was the best. A lot of people would have argued Kobe, those years.
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I get your point, not sure why you don't think I do. Who did people consider better than MJ in 93, 97, & 98? I can promise the consensus was MJ. I was joking with the Steve Nash comment. Though MVP is voted on by a handful of guys, that doesn't necessarily mean it has anything to do with national consenus of who is viewed as the best. Hence Nashs questionable winning of the MVP.
 
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#2,362
#2,362
BadJerry20 said:
Meh MVPs are bunk. Nash had back to back so by that criteria he should be on the list. Who was better than MJ in 93,97, & 98? Cause I'm pretty sure it was still consensus MJ. Shaq 00, 01, 02 was probably considered the best by most people. Most people would probably say Kobe for a few years, though I'd disagree.
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And to answer these questions, Jordan probably was consensus best in '97 and '98, but personally I would say there were several players better than him. His efficiency and productivity was noticeably down....even if you think he was the best, it's obvious he wasn't as good. Example: he shot over .600 TS% four straight seasons at one point, and shot .533 (league average) in 1998.

I thought MVP should have been Rodman or Kidd, in 1998.

I thought Stockton or G Hill should have won in 1997.

Shaq may have been undisputed, and I would say he was the best those years, but IIRC, a lot of people would have said Tim Duncan.
 
#2,363
#2,363
n_huffhines said:
And to answer these questions, Jordan probably was consensus best in '97 and '98, but personally I would say there were several players better than him. His efficiency and productivity was noticeably down....even if you think he was the best, it's obvious he wasn't as good. Example: he shot over .600 TS% four straight seasons at one point, and shot .533 (league average) in 1998.

I thought MVP should have been Rodman or Kidd, in 1998.

I thought Stockton or G Hill should have won in 1997.

Shaq may have been undisputed, and I would say he was the best those years, but IIRC, a lot of people would have said Tim Duncan.
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But the question was consensus best right? MJ was the consensus best from 88 on, minus the baseball crap.
 
#2,364
#2,364
BadJerry20 said:
But the question was consensus best right? MJ was the consensus best from 88 on, minus the baseball crap.
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Not sure. I thought it became consensus after his first title, and '97 and '98 are kind of questionable because Malone won MVP both years. In 1997 Malone winning could just be explained by people being tired of the same old MVP, but it can't explain 1998, otherwise it would have gone to Jordan or someone other than Malone if Jordan were the consensus....

So I'm gonna say MJ was consensus from '91-'93 and '96-'97. It's pretty subjective, and I recognize '89-'93 and '96-'98 might be the reality.
 
#2,365
#2,365
n_huffhines said:
Not sure. I thought it became consensus after his first title, and '97 and '98 are kind of questionable because Malone won MVP both years. In 1997 Malone winning could just be explained by people being tired of the same old MVP, but it can't explain 1998, otherwise it would have gone to Jordan or someone other than Malone if Jordan were the consensus....

So I'm gonna say MJ was consensus from '91-'93 and '96-'97. It's pretty subjective, and I recognize '89-'93 and '96-'98 might be the reality.
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Your MVP argument doesn't make sense to me. MJ was consensus after his first title, not his first MVP. But Malone winning twice (when he probably wasn't even the best player on his team) means MJ wasn't consensus best. And Nashs don't count.

MVP is voted on by a select few people it doesnt really show the consensus of everyone. If you asked players and the average American who was the best player in 97, 98 it would be MJ.
 
#2,366
#2,366
Point in case as far as Malone winning MVP, and knocking MJ off the throne. Who won MVP this year? Now, who is the consensus best player?
 
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#2,367
#2,367
BadJerry20 said:
Your MVP argument doesn't make sense to me. MJ was consensus after his first title, not his first MVP. But Malone winning twice (when he probably wasn't even the best player on his team) means MJ wasn't consensus best. And Nashs don't count.

MVP is voted on by a select few people it doesnt really show the consensus of everyone. If you asked players and the average American who was the best player in 97, 98 it would be MJ.
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Malone winning 2 in a row doesn't make Malone the consensus, but it does make Jordan lose his "undisputed" status, IMO.

Nash's count because they eliminate any claims about other players being consensus best those years.
 
#2,368
#2,368
BadJerry20 said:
Point in case as far as Malone winning MVP, and knocking MJ off the throne. Who won MVP this year? Now, who is the consensus best player?
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If Durant wins again this year, I would say Lebron's title is disputed. As of right now, he still has the undisputed title. As did MJ in 1997...1998, after Malone won it twice? I don't think so.
 
#2,369
#2,369
n_huffhines said:
Malone winning 2 in a row doesn't make Malone the consensus, but it does make Jordan lose his "undisputed" status, IMO.

Nash's count because they eliminate any claims about other players being consensus best those years.
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I wasn't saying that you meant Malone was. I just don't think a panel of 120 people represent general consensus is all.
 
#2,370
#2,370
n_huffhines said:
If Durant wins again this year, I would say Lebron's title is disputed. As of right now, he still has the undisputed title. As did MJ in 1997...1998, after Malone won it twice? I don't think so.
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We'll just agree to disagree, cause I think the consensus was MJ was the best till he went to Washington. 120 guys doesn't fully represent public opinion, most people probably dont even remember that Malone won 2. Just like I'd bet if KD wins, generally perception will still be that LBJ is the best.
 
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#2,371
#2,371
They should go back to letting players and coaches vote for MVP. Panelists get butthurt and vote janky...see Terry Pendleton winning over Barry Bonds. Basketball MVPs mean spit to me...Shaq has one, Kobe has one, Nash has 2.
 
#2,372
#2,372
It's crazy to me that Jordan was a shell of his former self in 1998 (in terms of efficiency), and people don't seem to think he lost a step at all. Per 48 vs career averages:

Points = -2.2
Assists = -2.3
Rebounds = -0.6
Blocks = -0.6
Steals = -0.8
TS% = -.036%

And consider all those are compared to career averages that include the years in Washington...if we were only comparing to the Chicago years, those numbers would show a much more drastic decline.
 
#2,374
#2,374
BadJerry20 said:
They should go back to letting players and coaches vote for MVP. Panelists get butthurt and vote janky...see Terry Pendleton winning over Barry Bonds. Basketball MVPs mean spit to me...Shaq has one, Kobe has one, Nash has 2.
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Shouldn't have any.

Bonds over Pendleton? Pendleton was the NL batting champ, had a higher slg %, and was a gold glove infielder. I'm not saying he's a clear winner, but I don't think he was a bad choice over Bonds.
 
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