The Pope is not the Anti-Christ...

#1
T

therealUT

Rational Thought Allowed?
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#1
...he just sits on the throne of the Anti-Christ. Will the media give this as much attention as Obama's connection to Rev. Wright?

By Daniel Burke
c. 2011 Religion News Service

WASHINGTON (RNS) The Lutheran denomination that GOP presidential candidate Rep. Michele Bachmann quit in June sought to explain its belief that the papacy is the anti-Christ after reports questioned whether Bachmann is anti-Catholic.

Six days before Bachmann officially launched her presidential campaign last month, the Minnesota Republican and her family verbally requested to leave Salem Lutheran Church in Stillwater, Minn., which is part of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS).

Synod spokesman Joel Hochmuth said Thursday (July 14) the Bachmanns had been members of Salem Lutheran for more than a decade, but had not attended the church for at least two years. They did not request a transfer to another congregation, he said.

The denomination says on its website: "We identify the anti-Christ as the papacy. This is an historical judgment based on Scripture."

Bachmann's campaign did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

The Republican, who has surged in recent presidential polls, denied that she is anti-Catholic in a 2006 debate. "It's abhorrent, it's religious bigotry. I love Catholics, I'm a Christian, and my church does not believe that the pope is the anti-Christ, that's absolutely false."

Bachmann also said that her pastor, the Rev. Marcus Birkholz, told her he was "appalled that someone would put that out."

According to Hochmuth, the pastor told Bachmann that WELS "primarily views the office of the papacy as the anti-Christ, not the individual popes themselves."

Asked for comment, Birkholz said Thursday, "I have been asked by my congregation not to give any more interviews."

An online report in The Atlantic magazine on Thursday (July 14) reported on WELS' anti-papal doctrine, and questioned whether Bachmann also subscribes to the view.

Bill Donohue, president of the watchdog Catholic League, said he does not believe Bachmann is anti-Catholic, but that "it is not inappropriate to ask some pointed questions of Rep. Bachmann and her religion's tenets."

Hochmuth said in an interview the anti-papal doctrine is "not one of our driving views, and certainly not something that we preach from the pulpit." Hochmuth said he doubts whether many members of WELS are aware of the doctrine, which dates to Protestant Reformer Martin Luther.

"As a confessional Lutheran church, we hold to the teachings of Martin Luther who himself maintained the papacy, and in turn the pope, has set himself up in place of Christ, and so is the anti-Christ," Hochmuth said.

He also described the anti-Christ as a theological principle, not a "cartoon character with horns."

Hochmuth added that "we love and respect Catholic Christians ... Yet we pray that they would come to see the errors of their church's official doctrine that the pope is infallible and that no one can be saved outside of the Roman Catholic Church."

Lutherans believe that individual salvation comes through faith alone, not through obedience to church doctrine or leaders.

With about 1,300 congregations and 400,000 members, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is one of the smallest and most conservative Lutheran denominations in the U.S.

Bachmann's Former Church Defends Anti-Catholic Views
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#2
#2
been too long since we've seen a good Lutheran vs. Catholic cage match

throw in Trinity United and Westboro and it can be a fatal 4-way
 
#5
#5
As long as she isn't also shooting wolves from helicopters, then I'm cool with her thinking the Pope is the....

Never mind. I'm not even going to jokingly type that. 6 days before, huh?
 
#7
#7
OJ said:
You believe in the Antichrist?
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I understand the concepts of good and evil. I understand the Christian connotation of "Anti-Christ" is meant to mean the physical, human embodiment of pure evil. I think it is outlandish to label the Catholic Church, the Pope, and/or the Papacy as "pure evil".

I also find it interesting that what her Church states what that they are fundamentally opposed to in Catholic Doctrine is not a part of Catholic Doctrine.
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#8
#8
bachman is clearly too much of a nutjob to win the general election. she's going to have to go obama,. wright, level denial about her religious beliefs to win.
 
#10
#10
That excerpt reads like a Chapelle skit:

"I never did things just to do them. I never just stomped on someone's couch. Yeah, I remember stomping on Eddie Murphy's couch."
 
#11
#11
droski said:
bachman is clearly too much of a nutjob to win the general election. she's going to have to go obama,. wright, level denial about her religious beliefs to win.
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Just giving her the Obama treatment, in the name of fairness.
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#13
#13
not sure I see the parallels here

wake me up when Bachmann claims that she can no more disown her church than she can disown her race
 
#15
#15
therealUT said:
Keep sleeping, then.
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alternatively, you could provide some clarification on whether you think the Lutheran criticism of the Papacy is the same as Jeremiah Wright's criticism of the US and if you think the way Obama and Bachmann have handled their respective issues are in any way the same.
 
#16
#16
MG1968 said:
alternatively, you could provide some clarification on whether you think the Lutheran criticism of the Papacy is the same as Jeremiah Wright's criticism of the US and if you think the way Obama and Bachmann have handled their respective issues are in any way the same.
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The parallel is that both Bachman and Obama are connected, over a score of years, to spiritual advisors that unapologetically spread a message of hatred. Withoutthe Jeremiah Wright debacle that Obama encountered on his campaign, might Bachman have kept her connection to her church when she filed her papers to run or President?

The fact that she has spent twenty years sitting in a church that refers to Catholics as at the feet of the Anti-Christ should be demonstrated to the public.
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#17
#17
therealUT said:
The parallel is that both Bachman and Obama are connected, over a score of years, to spiritual advisors that unapologetically spread a message of hatred. Withoutthe Jeremiah Wright debacle that Obama encountered on his campaign, might Bachman have kept her connection to her church when she filed her papers to run or President?

The fact that she has spent twenty years sitting in a church that refers to Catholics as at the feet of the Anti-Christ should be demonstrated to the public.
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I agree with this 100%.
 
#19
#19
Another interesting question is whether or if this becomes known does it hurt her more than Wright hurt Obama (which was very little).
 
#20
#20
volinbham said:
Another interesting question is whether or if this becomes known does it hurt her more than Wright hurt Obama (which was very little).
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I think it hurts her more. The Wright-Obama issue was treaded upon lightly by the media primarily because there was a racial element involved that some used to justify Wright's rantings.
 
#21
#21
LawVol13 said:
I think it hurts her more. The Wright-Obama issue was treaded upon lightly by the media primarily because there was a racial element involved that some used to justify Wright's rantings.
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sums up my guess too. Plus this fits a larger "loony" theme tied to Bachman. The Wright thing fit a larger "social justice" theme tied to Obama but was downplayed.
 
#22
#22
IPorange said:
It was "right" for over a thousand years. But now it is "wrong."
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The catholic church doesnt pick who gets into heaven. They might have suggested it years ago, but its well known that God chooses who goes to heaven and hell

anyway there is no comparison between Obama and Wright vs Bachmann and this Evangelical Lutheran church because Obama heard Wrights racist rants for 20+ years and had his kids baptised by the guy vs The Bachmanns seemed to only be affiliated with this church for a few years and dont seem like active members
 
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#23
#23
IPorange said:
It was "right" for over a thousand years. But now it is "wrong."
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The Catholic Church, as doctrine, has held this view for its entire history; there have certainly been some overly zealous Popes and communities thoughout that time who have radically interpretated the doctrines concerning heresy ad blasphemy, though. No use even trying to defend those individuals and those epochs; yet, the fundamental teachings regarding salvation have remained constant.

(It would do well for the world to never have a Catholic state, again; as much of these horrendous events and exploitations of Canon and Doctrine were ultimately used to mask political motives.)
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#25
#25
IPorange said:
My Catholic step grandparents seemed to think it was mandatory.
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There are some Catholics who are almost wholly ignorant of the Catechism; I would assume this holds for every major religion, as well.
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