The Program....

#26
#26
Ducreux said:
"changes in leadership of programs, not the W/L and the business aspect at the UTAD has traditionally driven results"

This is an excellent observation and in my opinion a textbook example of something I learned in the early 80's while obtaining my MBA from Columbia.. and that is that 85% of a companies/organizations problems are the direct result of management' and not its (workers)'...my statistics professor was W. Edwards Deming ...if you are familair with Deming you know he accomplished much more in the 'real world', industry and business' than the world of academia, and was my favorite contraiian...
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Deming wrote a very good book and was more than a statistician on that we agree, management mistakes normally trump any action or as it be no action.
 
#28
#28
armchair said:
The women's basketball program has been an emblem of success for the University of Tennessee for 25 years or so. It is arguably the most successful sports program UT has ever had. I think it also generates a fair chunk of revenue for the athletic department. I doubt Hart is dumb enough to let it wither or continue to slide. Warlick is a good person but she was a content loyal lieutenant for nearly 30 years. Thirty-year loyal lieutenants who are near the end of their careers don't suddenly become excellent head coaches--and we have seen that already with Warlick. She has done some good things, but she doesn't seem able to turn this group of talent--and make no mistake, there is a lot of talent on this team--into a team that can butt heads with, and beat, the other top teams in the country. When we face other talented teams, who are well coached, the odds are high that we will get beat. That's been the pattern for a while now.
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I said this in another thread and I think it bears repeating. You can't examine a coaching change in womens program without thinking about the job Hart was paid to do (right the ship with football and finance) and the prior dust ups with folks affiliated with the Lady Vols programs. Let's say for the sake of your argument that the Lady Vols program continues to stagnate with no additional SEC titles or Final Four appearances, the finances at UT continue to work themselves out, and the football program continues with positive momentum coming off the 2014 recruiting class. If you are Dave Hart are you really going to inject yourself into a battle over the womens basketball program? As Debby Jennings and Jenny Moshak have proven (rightly or wrongly) the folks affiliated with the Lady Vols don't go down without a fight. If you are him I doubt you provoke that headache which does nothing but distract from your main mission.

In fact if you are him the argument is near perfect. The loyalist around the LV program have claimed for sometime that Hart doesn't care about the women's programs. If he follows the game plan I laid out above he washes his hands of the situation and leaves it up to the people closest to the program to right the ship. If it fails, there won't be anyway to circle back to him for the blame.
 
#30
#30
Its funny that TN is in the top ten in all time wins in NCAA fb and some people still say that their not a top their program, just because we have had some rough seasons recently.
 
#31
#31
Ducreux said:
As someone well versed in statistics I understand 'normal variation'....I understand 'trends'....unfortunately I don't think that's what we have here....what we have is the center...the 'norm'...mean, median, mode...has shifted due to multiple causes or influences and not just one 'special cause'....we are no longer an elite program.....

I wonder if our leadership, decision makers, those empowered realize this....

I wonder long it will be before this is understood and accepted by others and we begin to see the consequences...
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The world of women’s basketball has changed significantly over the past 20 years. These changes have hurt the Tennessee program and little attempt to stop the bleeding has occurred.

In the past, high school coaches taught the fundamentals. Since then, the trend has been to play games instead of learning how to play the sport. Certainly, playing games is more fun than learning how to dribble the ball and it is more lucrative to appear in tournaments where tickets can be sold and individual player skills can be demonstrated and promoted so that scholarships can be obtained. Personal trainers, McD AA, AAU, etc. are showcases intended to enrich coaches, players, tourney impresarios.

As a result, talented kids come to college without knowing how to play the game. All they learned in High School was how to look good in front of a crowd. College coaches, particularly those who are old timers, don’t expect that they will have to teach the incoming All Americans the basic concepts, but that is what is necessary. But, like most 17-18 year olds, players already know it all (or so they think). They don’t expect to be taught how to properly pass the ball. It’s beneath them.

Two examples illustrate the polar opposites of this trend. Meighan Simmons, and Kelly Faris, formerly of uconn.
Meighan’s fame comes from her speed and shooting ability. Those two skills got her All American and Wade list status. In reality, she is not a good basketball player. It would be difficult for a coach to convince her and most fans of this.

The Vandy game provides a good example. Meighan made three consecutive 3s and gave the LVs a nice cushion late in the game. She was vigorously applauded for these shots. An unemotional analysis indicates two of the three baskets were very poor shots. In the corner, off balance and closely guarded, they were ill advised , but they went in. The coach and fans should have criticized her for taking those shots, but that didn’t happen.

Kelly Faris, although not that tall, was always assigned to guard the opposing team’s star player. Her father was a HS coach and taught her the fundamentals. Her passing, defense, fitness, rebounding, positioning and doggedness were flawless. She did all the little things perfectly. National Championships were a result, but she received little public recognition except from her coaches and teammates compared with the more offensive minded players. She was a true basketball player and winning was the result.

To me, this is the reason why Tennessee, with so many highly rated players, is relatively unsuccessful. The players are individually stars but don’t know how to play as a team. They have learned to do only what makes them look good.

A strong knowledgeable coach is required to correct the shortcomings. The coach, when interviewing potential recruits needs the gumption to say, “You don’t know diddly squat,” The coach must then risk losing the recruit by telling them how it’s going to be, no guarantees of playing time. Few modern players are likely to accept and embrace this. And "We love x" T-shirts and chants during official visits, photos on the jumbotron, etc. will not attract the right players no matter how skilled. .
Only a few teams have coaches who have full support of the administration, are strong enough to overcome player ego, understand what player characteristics are required by their team and recruit those players that fit in without regard to the player’s perceived rating.

Can Tennessee regain its former glory? Certainly possible with the right moves. The longer it takes to make them, the more difficult it will be to recover. To date, no evidence supports that possibility, no matter how positive the fan base remains, or how many backs Holly pats.
 
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#32
#32
The other night against Kentucky they play a very helter skelter type of game. Megan falls into that too easily. That is not our strength. We need to dictate the game and not let it be dictated to us. Kentucky's game is to come down and take a quick shot and then go for the rebound or steal-cause a turnover. We need to play disciplined and ball movement. When Megan gets into that mode nobody knows what she is doing and it disrupts the whole offense. Holly should have pulled her early and sat her the whole game.
 
#33
#33
WVU05UT09 said:
I said this in another thread and I think it bears repeating. You can't examine a coaching change in womens program without thinking about the job Hart was paid to do (right the ship with football and finance) and the prior dust ups with folks affiliated with the Lady Vols programs. Let's say for the sake of your argument that the Lady Vols program continues to stagnate with no additional SEC titles or Final Four appearances, the finances at UT continue to work themselves out, and the football program continues with positive momentum coming off the 2014 recruiting class. If you are Dave Hart are you really going to inject yourself into a battle over the womens basketball program? As Debby Jennings and Jenny Moshak have proven (rightly or wrongly) the folks affiliated with the Lady Vols don't go down without a fight. If you are him I doubt you provoke that headache which does nothing but distract from your main mission.

In fact if you are him the argument is near perfect. The loyalist around the LV program have claimed for sometime that Hart doesn't care about the women's programs. If he follows the game plan I laid out above he washes his hands of the situation and leaves it up to the people closest to the program to right the ship. If it fails, there won't be anyway to circle back to him for the blame.
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I could tell you what happened to Lady Vol basketball but I would get banned. Jennings, Moshak, Holly, are they entitled?
 
#35
#35
I think there are some grown ups that were or are within the Lady Vols program that have sued, will sue if let go, and they have the male administration on the run based on gender and a few other things. That is all I am going to say on the subject.
 
#36
#36
Fijivol72 said:
I think there are some grown ups that were or are within the Lady Vols program that have sued, will sue if let go, and they have the male administration on the run based on gender and a few other things. That is all I am going to say on the subject.
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I can't say whether the "on the run" comment has any validity to it. Its hard to believe Dave Hart will be that intimated by them but I could be wrong--you clearly know something I don't. But I do think you are right about them raising holy hell which is why I think he's going to let Holly Warlick fall on the sword and not intervene. In the grand scheme of things the performance of the womens basketball program has very little impact on how he will judged in the court of public opinion. So why bother and take the PR hit--especially after the merger drama.

Which for people like me who want an all-around athletic program of excellence it is imperative that our elite program return to its place. But I'm not convinced the people around it realize how far its fallen or have a solution to fix it. Maybe UConn setting the record for National Titles on Tennessee dirt will do it---couldn't be more ironic how that point in history is potentially setting up.
 
#37
#37
WVU05UT09 said:
I can't say whether the "on the run" comment has any validity to it. Its hard to believe Dave Hart will be that intimated by them but I could be wrong--you clearly know something I don't. But I do think you are right about them raising holy hell which is why I think he's going to let Holly Warlick fall on the sword and not intervene. In the grand scheme of things the performance of the womens basketball program has very little impact on how he will judged in the court of public opinion. So why bother and take the PR hit--especially after the merger drama.

Which for people like me who want an all-around athletic program of excellence it is imperative that our elite program return to its place. But I'm not convinced the people around it realize how far its fallen or have a solution to fix it. Maybe UConn setting the record for National Titles on Tennessee dirt will do it---couldn't be more ironic how that point in history is potentially setting up.
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You are correct unfortunately, turn your head and you don't have to deal with it. It's a problem that no one wants and the wall has been built.
 
#38
#38
Fijivol72 said:
You are correct unfortunately, turn your head and you don't have to deal with it. It's a problem that no one wants and the wall has been built.
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Are you inferring here and in previous posts is that there are 'dirty little secrets' at the university and in particular the AD departments.....fear that these will be exposed prevent the current administration from taking action(s) that they feel would improve the departments but potentially harm or negatively impact select individuals?
 
#39
#39
I don't think Hart is afraid of that. He is afraid of spending. Pat's salary was close to Pearl's. However, the women's program was losing money. Holly was the safe cheap hire. Pat wanted her. A lot of the die hard Lady Vol followers who go to every road game wanted her. They got her cheap. If they had gone after Mitchell, or Staley or Caldwell it would have cost them a million. They didn't want to do that.

P.S.-One thing the higher ups don't understand and I guess it is because they are so brilliant is just about all women's programs lose money. With Holly they are paying a lower salary but if apathy sets in like it has with the men's then it will still lose the same amount of money because TV and ticket revenue (and souvenirs) will be lower. You might as well have a great coach and lose money than a crappy coach and lose money.

(I am not implying that Holly is a crappy coach. Just wanted to demonstrate how that thinking doesn't work.)
 
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#40
#40
I fully agree Convoluted,you hit the nail on the head,,, I know I gona get jump on but Geno said it to many a talented kids,,YOU HAVE TO EARN YOUR PLAYING TIME and by the way he doesn't lose too many.It's a team thing and Tenn needs to get it back
 
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