They made batman woke

[franklinpence]

Tom King’s Penguin is well done. And I like the Penguin in the new movies/series.

Also, the last episode of the animated series was good. I enjoyed the series.

 

[Jackcrevol]

She isn’t gay. In fact she has two sons. One of which she brutally murders.

Penguin has always been one of the weakest of Batman’s rogues gallery. It’s the same reason Tim Burton turned him into some type of deformed mutant.

obligatory turning your comment into a gay social-political discussion. for no reason.

 

[NEO]

I do t think it’s just that they made the Penguin a woman but she’s like 6 foot tall. The tall thing drives me nuts.

I liked King Tut being at the beginning of the Harley cartoon as just a throw away goon.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

I'm a huge stickler for keeping source material, the source material. The race/gender/sexual orientation swapping of already established characters that's been happening in movies/TV shows lately has gotten ridiculous. Its lazy and blatant pandering! Create new stories/characters if you want to introduce more diversity! Don't piss all over the legacy of what's already been established!

 

[Jackcrevol]

I'm a huge stickler for keeping source material, the source material. The race/gender/sexual orientation swapping of already established characters that's been happening in movies/TV shows lately has gotten ridiculous. Its lazy and blatant pandering! Create new stories/characters if you want to introduce more diversity! Don't piss all over the legacy of what's already been established!

 

[Brave Volunteer]

View attachment 668706

I don't know what that gif is supposed to mean, but it's not like what I said is unreasonable or even controversial. A LOT of people feel that way!

 

[BenGrimm]

I'm a huge stickler for keeping source material, the source material. The race/gender/sexual orientation swapping of already established characters that's been happening in movies/TV shows lately has gotten ridiculous. Its lazy and blatant pandering! Create new stories/characters if you want to introduce more diversity! Don't piss all over the legacy of what's already been established!

Create new characters like in the Acolyte?

How did you feel about Sam Jackson as Fury? Or Idris Elba as Hiemdal? Do you like Myles Morales?

 

[Brave Volunteer]

O7oo

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Create new characters like in the Acolyte?

How did you feel about Sam Jackson as Fury? Or Idris Elba as Hiemdal? Do you like Myles Morales?

Miles Morales is a great character! Loved him in both the game and the Spider verse movies!

Regarding The Acolyte, it's a trash show, but yes I do give them credit for at least creating new characters, rather than remaking Star Wars and making Luke Skywalker a black lesbian or Obi-Wan a trans male with "ze, zur" pronouns.

As for your other examples, yeah, sorry! Stop the lazy race swaps! Both Samuel J. and Idris Elba were great in the roles. I still don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't take away from how great their performances were.

 

[Jackcrevol]

I don't know what that gif is supposed to mean, but it's not like what I said is unreasonable or even controversial. A LOT of people feel that way

wow. there's that much insecurity in the world?

 

[BenGrimm]

Miles Morales is a great character! Loved him in both the game and the Spider verse movies!

Regarding The Acolyte, it's a trash show, but yes I do give them credit for at least creating new characters, rather than remaking Star Wars and making Luke Skywalker a black lesbian or Obi-Wan a trans male with "ze, zur" pronouns.

As for your other examples, yeah, sorry! Stop the lazy race swaps! Both Samuel J. and Idris Elba were great in the roles. I still don't agree with the decision, but that doesn't take away from how great their performances were.

You are kinda disproving your own stance. If the actor can take control of the roll and own it then their race shouldn’t really matter.

The when new diverse characters are created people like you reject them more often than not. It’s lose-lose.

Tell me, what about Penguin’s character depends on being male? Aside from that being how he was first drawn in the 1940s.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

You are kinda disproving your own stance. If the actor can take control of the roll and own it then their race shouldn’t really matter.

The when new diverse characters are created people like you reject them more often than not. It’s lose-lose.

Tell me, what about Penguin’s character depends on being male? Aside from that being how he was first drawn in the 1940s.

I reject The Acolyte because it's a terrible show and the intent behind it was very obvious! The show's director wasn't interested in telling a great story. She simply wanted to use Star Wars as a vehicle to promote DEI and Disney let her. It was almost cartoonishly obvious and I'm not going to apologize for noticing!

I've said it before but, diversity is great if it's a natural byproduct of great character creation/casting and great story telling. A great recent example of this is the new Fallout show on Max. That show has a very diverse cast and its great because the casting and story telling are damn good!

When it's done as a very intentional, forward-facing attempt at pushing certain ideologies/societal abnorms, as was done in the Acolyte, it always...ALWAYS produces a terrible result! Right now, Disney is prioritizing promoting their "message" above story and the results are terrible! It's very reminiscent to me of some of those terrible Christian movies that get made, where it's obvious that the ONLY priority is delivering their message, and things like writing, character development, acting, etc suffer.

As for your question regarding The Penguin. Look, I've already stated my stance before. If it's an already established character, I think respect should be paid to the source material and keep that character the way he/she was originally created. Tell me something, how would you feel if say, Marvel recast Black Panther to be played by a white woman? Or Miles Morales as an Irish redhead? Would that be acceptable to you? It sure as hell wouldn't be acceptable to me!

 

[BenGrimm]

I reject The Acolyte because it's a terrible show and the intent behind it was very obvious! The show's director wasn't interested in telling a great story. She simply wanted to use Star Wars as a vehicle to promote DEI and Disney let her. It was almost cartoonishly obvious and I'm not going to apologize for noticing!

I've said it before but, diversity is great if it's a natural byproduct of great character creation/casting and great story telling. A great recent example of this is the new Fallout show on Max. That show has a very diverse cast and its great because the casting and story telling are damn good!

When it's done as a very intentional, forward-facing attempt at pushing certain ideologies/societal abnorms, as was done in the Acolyte, it always...ALWAYS produces a terrible result! Right now, Disney is prioritizing promoting their "message" above story and the results are terrible! It's very reminiscent to me of some of those terrible Christian movies that get made, where it's obvious that the ONLY priority is delivering their message, and things like writing, character development, acting, etc suffer.

As for your question regarding The Penguin. Look, I've already stated my stance before. If it's an already established character, I think respect should be paid to the source material and keep that character the way he/she was originally created. Tell me something, how would you feel if say, Marvel recast Black Panther to be played by a white woman? Or Miles Morales as an Irish redhead? Would that be acceptable to you? It sure as hell wouldn't be acceptable to me!

Black Panther is a bad faith argument since the character’s race is part of who he is. He was also created very intentionally to depict a black superhero in a positive way at the height of the civil rights movement (very woke of Kirby and Lee).

Similar for Miles as he was created in response to Donald Glover expressing he would like to play Spider-Man. I’m glad you like him but EVEN Miles gets pushback when he’s referred to as simply Spider-Man and not “A Spider-Man”.

Penguin hasn’t been depicted similar to how he first appeared in decades. Bergius Meradith is the closest to the source he’s ever been on film. After Tim Burton turned him into some deformed sewer dwelling mutant, those traits trickled into the original BTAS and even the comics. You think Colin Ferrell version is comic accurate?

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Black Panther is a bad faith argument since the character’s race is part of who he is. He was also created very intentionally to depict a black superhero in a positive way at the height of the civil rights movement (very woke of Kirby and Lee).

Similar for Miles as he was created in response to Donald Glover expressing he would like to play Spider-Man. I’m glad you like him but EVEN Miles gets pushback when he’s referred to as simply Spider-Man and not “A Spider-Man”.

But see, to me that sounds hypocritical to say "oh the origins of these characters are untouchable, because they are ethnic minority characters. But all these Euro-centric characters? F_ck 'em! Cut them up and bastardize them any way you like!" Everybody's race is part of who they are. Why are you deeming it less important if the character was originally white?

Penguin hasn’t been depicted similar to how he first appeared in decades. Bergius Meradith is the closest to the source he’s ever been on film. After Tim Burton turned him into some deformed sewer dwelling mutant, those traits trickled into the original BTAS and even the comics. You think Colin Ferrell version is comic accurate?

I hated BOTH depictions of the Penguin by Danny DeVito and Colin Ferrell.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

wow. there's that much insecurity in the world?

Asking you to clarify your post is insecurity? Wow, who knew?

 

[BenGrimm]

But see, to me that sounds hypocritical to say "oh the origins of these characters are untouchable, because they are ethnic minority characters. But all these Euro-centric characters? F_ck 'em! Cut them up and bastardize them any way you like!" Everybody's race is part of who they are. Why are you deeming it less important if the character was originally white?



I hated BOTH depictions of the Penguin by Danny DeVito and Colin Ferrell.

Most of the characters created in the 40s-60s were only white to cater to the broader population. Attempting more diversity in those days risked not being carried on newsstands in wide swaths of America. More or less it was marketing (or pandering if that’s your preferred term). They were created mostly by Jews but they couldn’t even demonstrate that in their characters.

Look up the story behind EC’s Judgement Day and how the Comics Code wanted them to change the ending. That is exactly why the majority of characters were white. Not because it was some core component of their character.

Jack and Stan were taking a risk putting a black hero in what was the flagship book at the time. Not only was he a king but a scientific genius who methodically conquered the FF just to demonstrate his superiority. It broke every stereotype it could.

Also, the reason so few Black, Hispanic, and Asian characters can’t be swapped to white is because there are so few of them to begin with. The ones that do exist were created as a response to the lack of diverse characters.

In fairness there are a few characters I think being white is integral to their character. Thor, being a Norse God, is one. Steve Rogers being made the face of the US Military in 1942 is another.

There are a few that I would prefer not be changed, like Peter Parker, but I cannot give a reason as to why he needs to be white. If for some reason a talented black actor was cast and the story was good then I would probably shrug and say “There’s a black Peter Parker now”. The white one I knew still exists in the thousands of comics, cartoons, games, and older movies.

To bring it back to this show, explain to me what about Commissioner Gordon being white is essential to his character?

 

[woodpusher]

You are kinda disproving your own stance. If the actor can take control of the roll and own it then their race shouldn’t really matter.

The when new diverse characters are created people like you reject them more often than not. It’s lose-lose.

Tell me, what about Penguin’s character depends on being male? Aside from that being how he was first drawn in the 1940s.

I've been thinking about this -- if there were a woman dressed up in a tuxedo and top hat, would anyone really say, "she looks like a penguin?" I would not.

A fat, dumpy woman in a tuxedo and top hat doesn't improve her look but a fat, dumpy man does.
A beautiful woman would look better in an evening gown.

In the classic TV series, there was The Siren and Marsha, Queen of Diamonds -- maybe others I'm forgetting.
If I had to start from scratch, I'd call her "China Doll."

 

[hndog609]

In fairness there are a few characters I think being white is integral to their character. Thor, being a Norse God, is one. Steve Rogers being made the face of the US Military in 1942 is another.

You might find this funny but not only does this very logic contradict Elba (or any dark skinned person) portraying Heimdall (Norse God and all) but in the actual lore he is literally THE most white skinned of that group.

Heimdall | Guardian of Asgard, God of War & Watchman of Bifrost | Britannica

Heimdall, in Norse mythology, the watchman of the gods. Called the shining god and whitest skinned of the gods, Heimdall dwelt at the entry to Asgard, where he guarded Bifrost, the rainbow bridge. He required less sleep than a bird, could see 100 leagues, and could hear grass growing in the meadows

www.britannica.com

I have no idea if that might have been an inside joke on someone's part at Marvel (black Norse guy, nevermind the original description of Heimdall) but it's kinda funny.

 

[BenGrimm]

You might find this funny but not only does this very logic contradict Elba (or any dark skinned person) portraying Heimdall (Norse God and all) but in the actual lore he is literally THE most white skinned of that group.

Heimdall | Guardian of Asgard, God of War & Watchman of Bifrost | Britannica

Heimdall, in Norse mythology, the watchman of the gods. Called the shining god and whitest skinned of the gods, Heimdall dwelt at the entry to Asgard, where he guarded Bifrost, the rainbow bridge. He required less sleep than a bird, could see 100 leagues, and could hear grass growing in the meadows

www.britannica.com

I have no idea if that might have been an inside joke on someone's part at Marvel (black Norse guy, nevermind the original description of Heimdall) but it's kinda funny.

I will a knowledge my hypocrisy on Elba because Heimdal is a supporting character. To me that is much less jarring than swapping the main character.

But also, the true Norse descriptions of the Gods is almost irrelevant to Marvel’s version.

For instance, Loki and Thor are not brothers of any type and Hela is actually Loki’s daughter. Balder is Thor’s half brother in Norse but not in Marvel. And the Warriors Three play bigger role in the comics than Heimdal but they are purely Marvel creations.

(As an aside for those that complain about Disney “pushing a woke agenda”, the casting of Heimdal and changing the ethnicity of The Warriors Three was done before Disney bought Marvel.)

 

[hndog609]

I will a knowledge my hypocrisy on Elba because Heimdal is a supporting character. To me that is much less jarring than swapping the main character.

But also, the true Norse descriptions of the Gods is almost irrelevant to Marvel’s version.

For instance, Loki and Thor are not brothers of any type and Hela is actually Loki’s daughter. Balder is Thor’s half brother in Norse but not in Marvel. And the Warriors Three play bigger role in the comics than Heimdal but they are purely Marvel creations.

(As an aside for those that complain about Disney “pushing a woke agenda”, the casting of Heimdal and changing the ethnicity of The Warriors Three was done before Disney bought Marvel.)

I wasn't making any big deal out of it. Just pointing out how it's a bit eye rolling to have a black Norse God and outright funny the one race swapped was literally referenced in the lore as the whitest dude of the bunch.

 

[BenGrimm]

I wasn't making any big deal out of it. Just pointing out how it's a bit eye rolling to have a black Norse God and outright funny the one race swapped was literally referenced in the lore as the whitest dude of the bunch.

The irony is noted

 

[LouderVol]

Most of the characters created in the 40s-60s were only white to cater to the broader population. Attempting more diversity in those days risked not being carried on newsstands in wide swaths of America. More or less it was marketing (or pandering if that’s your preferred term). They were created mostly by Jews but they couldn’t even demonstrate that in their characters.

Look up the story behind EC’s Judgement Day and how the Comics Code wanted them to change the ending. That is exactly why the majority of characters were white. Not because it was some core component of their character.

Jack and Stan were taking a risk putting a black hero in what was the flagship book at the time. Not only was he a king but a scientific genius who methodically conquered the FF just to demonstrate his superiority. It broke every stereotype it could.

Also, the reason so few Black, Hispanic, and Asian characters can’t be swapped to white is because there are so few of them to begin with. The ones that do exist were created as a response to the lack of diverse characters.

In fairness there are a few characters I think being white is integral to their character. Thor, being a Norse God, is one. Steve Rogers being made the face of the US Military in 1942 is another.

There are a few that I would prefer not be changed, like Peter Parker, but I cannot give a reason as to why he needs to be white. If for some reason a talented black actor was cast and the story was good then I would probably shrug and say “There’s a black Peter Parker now”. The white one I knew still exists in the thousands of comics, cartoons, games, and older movies.

To bring it back to this show, explain to me what about Commissioner Gordon being white is essential to his character?

I don't think Black Panther had to be black to do any of what has been listed. any other minority would have worked. some south american "panther" would work even from the animal/ancient kingdom aspect.

not arguing against any character being any one way, just saying if your sole goal is to break the stereotype you have created, you don't have to have a certain character be a certain race in every story.

I personally appreciate the diversity, some of the cultural references are amazing on their own. to me the diversity for diversity sake became its own, borderline racist, thing; rather than it being a natural, or honest, evolution to actually celebrate the new/different culture. I think people's reaction to movies like the Great Wall with Matt Damon show that you have to have a white person for white people to be interested. it was crap because it was forced; just have that story with no white people, and maybe it makes enough sense to be successful. often time it feels similar to me when "actual diversity" is just inserted into a "white" movie or story. it more often than not falls flat, interrupts at least if not ruins, the established successful storyline. and does very little to actually advance anything, either storyline or some type of racial representation.

even Black Panther was guilty of the forcing "Tolkien" white guys into it. here is the white agent who doesn't really do anything to advance the story. Klaue made at least some sense with ties to the story but the way they work him into the movie is forced rather than good/great storytelling. literally just could have had Killmonger by himself leading the museum robbery.

 

[Jackcrevol]

I don't think Black Panther had to be black to do any of what has been listed. any other minority would have worked. some south american "panther" would work even from the animal/ancient kingdom aspect.

not arguing against any character being any one way, just saying if your sole goal is to break the stereotype you have created, you don't have to have a certain character be a certain race in every story.

I personally appreciate the diversity, some of the cultural references are amazing on their own. to me the diversity for diversity sake became its own, borderline racist, thing; rather than it being a natural, or honest, evolution to actually celebrate the new/different culture. I think people's reaction to movies like the Great Wall with Matt Damon show that you have to have a white person for white people to be interested. it was crap because it was forced; just have that story with no white people, and maybe it makes enough sense to be successful. often time it feels similar to me when "actual diversity" is just inserted into a "white" movie or story. it more often than not falls flat, interrupts at least if not ruins, the established successful storyline. and does very little to actually advance anything, either storyline or some type of racial representation.

even Black Panther was guilty of the forcing "Tolkien" white guys into it. here is the white agent who doesn't really do anything to advance the story. Klaue made at least some sense with ties to the story but the way they work him into the movie is forced rather than good/great storytelling. literally just could have had Killmonger by himself leading the museum robbery.

Outside of Black Panther, and Wakandans (in a fictional African town), being black. Dont guess I ever gave it a moments thought.

I didnt read your post, just question a racial breakdown of MCU movies. Like, why? Then, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[LouderVol]

Outside of Black Panther, and Wakandans (in a fictional African town), being black. Dont guess I ever gave it a moments thought.

I didnt read your post, just question a racial breakdown of MCU movies. Like, why? Then, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

what do you mean a racial breakdown?