this is America's working class?

#26
#26
Would a public union's ability to leverage benefits through collective bargaining be analagous to a health insurance company's ability to boost profits by seemingly denying claims indescriminately or anytime they want to boost revenue? I'm curious.
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#28
#28
JTrainDavis said:
Define 'good'. Long waits for basic procedures and denial of care deemed non essential? Very little fundimg gor research, and denying payment for innovative procedures and treatments? Then you are correct.
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I don't remember the last time I was at the doctor's office or ER and I didn't have to wait at least an hour. In Canada/England/Etc, the healthcare is prioritized. Most serious patients are seen first, everyone else is assessed and seen when available.

In a market driven healthcare system like the US, the system bases service on ability to pay.

In a socialised systems, the taxpayer pays less towards healthcare than in the American system, except in Luxembourg and Norway, which isn't surprising as Luxembourg, with a GDP per capita of $105,400 and Norway with a GDP per Capita of $59,000 are richer countries than the US with its GDP per capita of $48,000.

Government expenditure on healthcare per person, 2008 except where otherwise stated.
Norway $4,213
Luxembourg $3,561
USA $3,507
Canada $2,719
Ireland $2,918
France $2,875
Germany $2,776
UK $2,585
Japan $2,234 (2007)
Italy $2,216
Finland $2,160
New Zealand $1,971
Spain $1,909
Portugal $1,539 (2006)
Data: OECD
OECD Health Data 2010 - Selected Data
 
#29
#29
VOLatile said:
Great Britain has good health care and they've had universal health care for 50 years. Nice try.
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I've often wondered why Ted Kennedy opted out of the Cuban healthcare system in favor of the Brits.
 
#30
#30
IPorange said:
Research component is what a lot of universal healthcare advocates seem to ignore.
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Britain has certainly a fine history of medical research under the NHS system.

US had to bend the rules in order to get licensing for Cuban biotechnology.

I believe 8 of the top 10 drugs (viagara, I think, is the one big exception) were discovered / developed in academia / on NIH funds.

I'm not sure which component you mean.
 
#31
#31
VOLatile said:
I don't remember the last time I was at the doctor's office or ER and I didn't have to wait at least an hour. In Canada/England/Etc, the healthcare is prioritized. Most serious patients are seen first, everyone else is assessed and seen when available.

In a market driven healthcare system like the US, the system bases service on ability to pay.

In a socialised systems, the taxpayer pays less towards healthcare than in the American system, except in Luxembourg and Norway, which isn't surprising as Luxembourg, with a GDP per capita of $105,400 and Norway with a GDP per Capita of $59,000 are richer countries than the US with its GDP per capita of $48,000.

Government expenditure on healthcare per person, 2008 except where otherwise stated.
Norway $4,213
Luxembourg $3,561
USA $3,507
Canada $2,719
Ireland $2,918
France $2,875
Germany $2,776
UK $2,585
Japan $2,234 (2007)
Italy $2,216
Finland $2,160
New Zealand $1,971
Spain $1,909
Portugal $1,539 (2006)
Data: OECD
OECD Health Data 2010 - Selected Data
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Great data. I downloaded the spreadsheet even. Didn't know the OECD had created such a handy little tool. Nice find.

And let's keep in mind that quality is both a measure of efficiency AND performance. We spend a lot, but we get less bang for the buck.
 
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#33
#33
utgibbs said:
Good grief, sjt. By your own value metrics the fact that he has made a lot of people a ton of money is intrinsic good.

We have currently bailed out to the tune of 13 trillion people who trade literally trade in nothing.

Please, sjt, take a step back from the ideology pipe.

Your premise on socialized medicine is wholly false, and irredeemably so. Every population sized model in the world testifies to this. USA highest per capita expenditure, but around 30th in overall health metrics.

In fact, it is the private system which has no incentive for efficiency.

This is also borne out in the real world as those systems which depend heavily on a private component (USA, Switzerland) spend the most on health care, but do not have top metrics.
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Do you really think the US HAS 13 trillion to spend on the banks? Can you please use some common sense? Where is this lost money in obamas budget?
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#34
#34
droski said:
Do you really think the US HAS 13 trillion to spend on the banks? Can you please use some common sense? Where is this lost money in obamas budget?
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No, but I don't believe the world GDP is 600 trillion either (more like 50 trillion). Yet somehow they make the "money" appear.

Just because Super-Keynes has calmed nerves this time, the next big gulp will be here long before the decade ends. And it was 13 trillion in loans / guarantees, "toxic asset" purchases, etc.
 
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#35
#35
utgibbs said:
No, but I don't believe the world GDP is 600 trillion either (more like 50 trillion). Yet somehow they make the "money" appear.

Just because Super-Keynes has calmed nerves this time, the next big gulp will be here long before the decade ends. And it was 13 trillion in loans / guarantees, "toxic asset" purchases, etc.
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No it wasn't. Just saying it more doesn't make it true.
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#38
#38
VOLatile said:
It's because all of my injuries have been far less severe than people in front of me. Same reason why I would wait that long in a universal system.
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You'd be waiting much longer. If you hurt your knee and seek treatment, a doctor is going to see you today, regardless of whether or not you skinned it or your tore your ACL. The difference is, you'll go ahead and get your imaging ASAP if it's necessary. Sure they'll take care of the guy with the fractured skull first, but they're eventually getting around to you. That's not the way it works elsewhere.

Also, if you're experiencing a wait at a regular doctor's office, it's more then likely due to some bum earlier in the day strolling in extremely late, but needing to be seen, anyway. Having worked with government funded healthcare before, I can guarantee that factor increases tenfold at any Tenncare/medicaid type office. Most of those places actually overbook because the cancellation rate is so high you can bank on not filling your day even if you schedule more patients than your time allows.
 
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#40
#40
droski said:
what a ridiculously misleading article. since when are overnight loans and guaranteed loans spending money? i guess you spend money when you deposit money in your checking account.
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Still big pimpin' Super-Keynes?

Here it is Barney-style:

I lend you at 0%.

You lend me at 4%.

I lend you at 0%.

You buy "assets" (from me) with guaranteed return of > 0%.

I buy "assets" from you (described as "toxic") which you can't sell anymore.

Look, up in the sky, it's Super-Keynes!
 
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#42
#42
utgibbs said:
Still big pimpin' Super-Keynes?

Here it is Barney-style:

I lend you at 0%.

You lend me at 4%.

I lend you at 0%.

You buy "assets" (from me) with guaranteed return of > 0%.

I buy "assets" from you (described as "toxic") which you can't sell anymore.

Look, up in the sky, it's Super-Keynes!
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so why hasn't our debt gone up by $13 trillion if that is what is going on? and since when are fannie and freddie mortgages toxic assets? use some common sense for once.

and the 20 year treasury is at 4%. are you really arguing that banks are borrowing overnight loans and buying 20 year treasuries?
 
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#43
#43
VOLatile said:
Great Britain has good health care and they've had universal health care for 50 years. Nice try.
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It's so good that Brits that make a lot of money opt for private medical insurance so they can bypass that "good" government healthcare.
 
#44
#44
droski said:
so why hasn't our debt gone up by $13 trillion if that is what is going on? and since when are fannie and freddie mortgages toxic assets? use some common sense for once.

and the 20 year treasury is at 4%. are you really arguing that banks are borrowing overnight loans and buying 20 year treasuries?
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It wasn't my phrase, droski.

As for the rest, you know the answer as well as I do, or do I have to spam links again?
 
#45
#45
utgibbs said:
It wasn't my phrase, droski.

As for the rest, you know the answer as well as I do, or do I have to spam links again?
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they said they would buy toxic assets and they never did it. is this really that complicated? and btw those who bought said toxic assets are now sitting on 100% gains so i wish we had actually done it.

the only "evidence" you have given me is from a blog. how about hte wall street journal? or new york times?
 
#46
#46
Vol423 said:
It's so good that Brits that make a lot of money opt for private medical insurance so they can bypass that "good" government healthcare.
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"Private" insurance is usually cosmetic in nature. A lot of people I know in Britain have some private coverage (and they are well-to-do). Yet, they do everything major on the NHS. I know a couple of tummy tucks and ingrown toenails folks have gone private on. It is certainly more expensive.
 
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