this is the type of war we're fighting

#2
#2
I don't get it. Are you suggesting that we need to be following the moral codes of the Taliban?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#3
#3
I don't get it. Are you suggesting that we need to be following the moral codes of the Taliban?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

I'm not saying that (of course you know that), I'm saying this is the type of scum we're up against. not to mention liberals trying to score political points by condemning Bush when he authorized waterboarding to scare terrorists into giving up information.
 
#4
#4
I'm not saying that (of course you know that), I'm saying this is the type of scum we're up against. not to mention liberals trying to score political points by condemning Bush when he authorized waterboarding to scare terrorists into giving up information.

Wasn't the question about the legality of waterboarding vis a vis the Geneva Convention, to which we are a signatory?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#5
#5
Wasn't the question about the legality of waterboarding vis a vis the Geneva Convention, to which we are a signatory?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

I don't believe terrorists get protection under the Geneva Convention.
 
#6
#6
Stop trying to reason with the permanently irrational. You are wasting your time.
 
#7
#7
We only have one option. All American citizens must act as if they've converted to Islam and earn their trust...and then...we kill them all.
 
#9
#9
It's not about their protections. It's about our behavior.

If we are reasonably sure that a high value prisoner has info that might save the lives of Americans where do we draw the line? Is water boarding off your table in those situations?
 
#10
#10
If we are reasonably sure that a high value prisoner has info that might save the lives of Americans where do we draw the line? Is water boarding off your table in those situations?

It isn't. I just don't think questioning the practice quite lives up to "treason and sedition."

We are basically the heart and soul of the Geneva Conventions and without our very public support of the tenets therein, everyone will will begin to even more brazenly ignore them.
 
#11
#11
It isn't. I just don't think questioning the practice quite lives up to "treason and sedition."

We are basically the heart and soul of the Geneva Conventions and without our very public support of the tenets therein, everyone will will begin to even more brazenly ignore them.

I don't disagree here it all, allowing "enhanced interrogation" techniques like these should be a difficult decision and weighed with the possible information and it's value before putting them in practice.

I would add that the shrill charges of torture for tortures sake are just as ridiculous as those pronouncing it as sedition and treason.
 
#12
#12
It isn't. I just don't think questioning the practice quite lives up to "treason and sedition."

We are basically the heart and soul of the Geneva Conventions and without our very public support of the tenets therein, everyone will will begin to even more brazenly ignore them.


Correct.



I don't disagree here it all, allowing "enhanced interrogation" techniques like these should be a difficult decision and weighed with the possible information and it's value before putting them in practice.

I would add that the shrill charges of torture for tortures sake are just as ridiculous as those pronouncing it as sedition and treason.


See the thread earlier about means and ends. At first blush I too think like you do, and I can envision the scenario of the guy who we think positively knows where the nuclear bomb is that is going to go off in an hour. But beware those who would use that argument to justify "enhanced interrogation techniques" on those with information about far lesser threats and where we have far less certainty of their roles.
 
#13
#13
See the thread earlier about means and ends. At first blush I too think like you do, and I can envision the scenario of the guy who we think positively knows where the nuclear bomb is that is going to go off in an hour. But beware those who would use that argument to justify "enhanced interrogation techniques" on those with information about far lesser threats and where we have far less certainty of their roles.

This is simply your admission that you don't trust those hammering people's toes. IMO, we should let the pros make judgments about whom to interrogate how, but should still follow our rule of law, which is what distinguishes us from most other militaries.
 
#15
#15
I'm for waterboarding but if it's borderline torture maybe we could use sweet tea to make it more pleasant?
 
#16
#16
I'm for waterboarding but if it's borderline torture maybe we could use sweet tea to make it more pleasant?

good idea. Maybe Dr. Pepper to make it tastier, but a nose burn to enhance the drowning sensation. We'll have 'em singing like canaries.
 
#18
#18
It isn't. I just don't think questioning the practice quite lives up to "treason and sedition."

We are basically the heart and soul of the Geneva Conventions and without our very public support of the tenets therein, everyone will will begin to even more brazenly ignore them.

So it's OK by the Geneva convention to drop cluster bombs on civilian school yards, hospitals and churches on Easter Sunday morning in Belgrade but not OK to water board someone plotting to terrorize American's by whatever sinister plan they're involved with, to gain information in order to prevent harm coming to our citizens??

On top of that we have our soldiers in harms way walking around without a chambered round so as to protect civilians???

I would say there is some treason and sedition going on.

If the above isn't enough, take the case of Honduras, just because they refused to allow a communist takeover of their country and follow their constitution, our state department is putting sanctions on them.

Yep, I would say that passes the treason and sedition test when you look at their whold body of work.

Furthermore, neither islamic or communist (who are often bed fellow politically) forces are going to give on whit about the Geneva convention, never have, never will.
 
#19
#19
So it's OK by the Geneva convention to drop cluster bombs on civilian school yards, hospitals and churches on Easter Sunday morning in Belgrade but not OK to water board someone plotting to terrorize American's by whatever sinister plan they're involved with, to gain information in order to prevent harm coming to our citizens??

When did I say that? What do you know of why we dropped munitions in those places. Enemy use of civilian property is well documented and the Geneva Convention actually delineates rules for those very specific occasions. Regardless, that has nothing to do with the OP's comments, to which I was responding.

On top of that we have our soldiers in harms way walking around without a chambered round so as to protect civilians???

We are never going to get away from listening to idiotic civilians in control of things like ROE. It's a fact of life in a military that answers to a politician, but it's a very good system.

I would say there is some treason and sedition going on.

of course there is, but it isn't remotely limited to liberals nor is this link indicative of said treason.

If the above isn't enough, take the case of Honduras, just because they refused to allow a communist takeover of their country and follow their constitution, our state department is putting sanctions on them.

Yep, I would say that passes the treason and sedition test when you look at their whold body of work.

Furthermore, neither islamic or communist (who are often bed fellow politically) forces are going to give on whit about the Geneva convention, never have, never will.

I thought I specifically mentioned that we are the heart and soul of the convention. We acknowledge that generally and our senior commanders spend many hours at CGSC and the War College and such discussing the slippery slope that such a situation fosters. Regardless, we shouldn't set our standards based upon what the bad guys might do.

see bold.
 
#20
#20
This is simply your admission that you don't trust those hammering people's toes. IMO, we should let the pros make judgments about whom to interrogate how, but should still follow our rule of law, which is what distinguishes us from most other militaries.


1) Who are these pros, exactly, that we should defer to? The intelligence people who determine the likelihood that a detainee has important information? And are these the same intelligence people who have been woefully wrong about so much over the last 9 years?

2) Is it the military people who would do the actual interrogating who make the call? They have a really great track record, don't they?

3) And how much deference do we give them? Is there no review of it? If they go too far, what is the remedy?

My default, like you, is to say let's leave it to the experts. My problem is that the experts so far seem to suck.
 
#23
#23
1) Who are these pros, exactly, that we should defer to? The intelligence people who determine the likelihood that a detainee has important information? And are these the same intelligence people who have been woefully wrong about so much over the last 9 years?

No, those are entirely different people. Field spooks and intel analysts aren't remotely the same folks.

2) Is it the military people who would do the actual interrogating who make the call? They have a really great track record, don't they?

Some would, but the battlefield is their space, period. Not yours or some mealy mouthed, toothless pacifist worried about offending someone's sensibilities at the expense of some commander's soldiers.

3) And how much deference do we give them? Is there no review of it? If they go too far, what is the remedy?

The remedy is punishment via the USMJ, which is what we do and do regularly, to the point of being over the top.

My default, like you, is to say let's leave it to the experts. My problem is that the experts so far seem to suck.

This is an absurd statement, given the number of field decisions being made and made in the correct manner. Unfortunately, you simply have no idea of the number of times we get it right. All you hear about is sensationalized trash from idiotic congressmen looking to switch sides or gain political advantage. Those clowns are wrong far more often that our soldiers and spooks.

see bold
 
#24
#24
I choose survival. You can't offer these guys milk and cookies and make sure they are comfortable. They are willing to die for their cause.

I was unaware of the bad guys' zeal.

If dying is their ultimate end, why is waterboarding even a remotely viable info gathering alternative?
 
#25
#25
I was unaware of the bad guys' zeal.

If dying is their ultimate end, why is waterboarding even a remotely viable info gathering alternative?

By strapping on a bomb or getting bombed they probably die pretty quickly, by using methods as waterboarding they are made very uncomfortable and don't know how long the torture will last. Our methods under Bush were proved effective.
 

VN Store



Back
Top