This is why some atheists really bother me

[IBlvNTmWrk]

The quote you chose does not describe the position of the American Atheist Group, it describes the analysis of the opinion by Amanda, the author. The quote I chose, by the President of the American Atheist Group, describes their position.

I have a problem with the author's integrity, as well. Both of you seem to be lacking it.

There are numerous other articles about this topic which all state similar positions by the American Atheist group. Why don't you go try to start an argument with them as well since you seem to enjoy it so much.

I don't care, but there really shouldn't be any religious symbolism for this, in a perfect world. Of course it was going to offend non-Christians, not just atheists. It just carries a connotation religious endorsement, which would be contrary to the idea of religious freedom. But then again, there are a lot of other things like this besides museum memorials. Not worth working up a fuss over IMO, but I disagree with the sentiment of he action.

My post, and sentiment, has nothing to do with other religions as that does not bother me. It just seems odd that an atheist group, for the most part, seems to be defending the rights of other religions.

 

[tvolsfan]

It just seems odd that an atheist group, for the most part, seems to be defending the rights of other religions.

I can't see that being their goal here. Seems just more of a way to get the cross down. I could be wrong.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

My post, and sentiment, has nothing to do with other religions as that does not bother me. It just seems odd that an atheist group, for the most part, seems to be defending the rights of other religions.

I don't see what's odd about it. It seems to me that they feel the memorial represents and endorses Christianity. Whether it is or not is irrelevant because a religious symbol is still being used to intentionally conjure up emotions. That's fine if such a strategy is used in movies, music, blogs, etc., but a museum should have a purely objective stance. I doubt any respectable atheists have it out against any particular religion, but when one is showcased in a manner like this, it is certainly a questionable action on the part of the curators.

In any case, I still don't think it's a huge issue, but if you had to assign righteousness to one party or the other, we know who has the correct stance.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

I can't see that being their goal here. Seems just more of a way to get the cross down. I could be wrong.

I'm sure they don't want the cross to be displayed, but not because they have it out for Christianity or any other religion. A non-religious museum is just not the place for religious symbols.

 

[MG1968]

I'm sure they don't want the cross to be displayed, but not because they have it out for Christianity or any other religion. A non-religious museum is just not the place for religious symbols.

that must mean that all of the artifacts from ancient Egypt should be immediately removed from any "non-religious" museum in the United States.

what about facsimiles of Gutenberg's press?

representations of religion have long been a part, even a staple of museums around the world. Including the WTC cross in a museum dedicated to the remembrance of 9/11 and the aftermath should be a no-brainer. It doesn't mean that Billy Graham, Jr. is going to be waiting at the door and sprinkling holy water on everybody who enters.

some of the more militant atheists act as if religious symbols are painful for them to be around. Whatever happened to tolerance? Is an inanimate object really going to threaten their belief system? If they don't believe in what a cross, crescent/moon, or Star of David represent, why should they care to encounter them in public places?

 

[Rockytop1018]

I don't typically get involved in these types of discussions, but why does it really matter to the Atheists? Seems to me like they have too much of an agenda.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

that must mean that all of the artifacts from ancient Egypt should be immediately removed from any "non-religious" museum in the United States.

I certainly understand what you're saying, but the kinds of symbols you're referring to are more historical in nature. I don't have a problem with the cross being in the museum because it's undoubtedly a spectacular artifact. However, using it in a memorial is what bothers me.

What is the correlation supposed to be with the cross and the memorial anyway? If I were adventurous, I could argue that curator was pushing his/her agenda in the same fashion you described.

 

[tvolsfan]

I certainly understand what you're saying, but the kinds of symbols you're referring to are more historical in nature. I don't have a problem with the cross being in the museum because it's undoubtedly a spectacular artifact. However, using it in a memorial is what bothers me.

What is the correlation supposed to be with the cross and the memorial anyway? If I were adventurous, I could argue that curator was pushing his/her agenda in the same fashion you described.

It would be pushing his own agenda if he got went out and got a cross to put there. It being an artifact makes it different.

 

[therealUT]

There are numerous other articles about this topic which all state similar positions by the American Atheist group. Why don't you go try to start an argument with them as well since you seem to enjoy it so much.

Integrity.

"This is why some atheists really bother me." That was your headline, correct? I am going to assume that you read the entire article that you posted, if not than you are intellectually lazy. If so, then you chose to ignore what the actual spokesman for the American Atheists said and instead went with the incorrect interpretation by the author. You have as much of an agenda as the group you are calling out, except you are lying to achieve such an agenda.

 

[KiffinKiller]

If it helps I think both sides suck.

 

[rjd970]

Wasted effort on the part of the atheists, IMO.

A more fun argument would be to address why it is such a big deal that a cross beam structure falling down just happen to cause two beams to form a cross. Not only is it stupid to think it was of divine origin, but we should think it would be expected.

Now, if it had formed a star of david, that would be something to talk about.

 

[therealUT]

Wasted effort on the part of the atheists, IMO.

A more fun argument would be to address why it is such a big deal that a cross beam structure falling down just happen to cause two beams to form a cross. Not only is it stupid to think it was of divine origin, but we should think it would be expected.

Now, if it had formed a star of david, that would be something to talk about.

Maybe, had the cross beam jumped out and thwarted the attack it would be something to talk about. The supernatural intervening after such horrid death and destruction is a little cold, IMO.
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[VOLatile]

Wasted effort on the part of the atheists, IMO.

A more fun argument would be to address why it is such a big deal that a cross beam structure falling down just happen to cause two beams to form a cross. Not only is it stupid to think it was of divine origin, but we should think it would be expected.

Now, if it had formed a star of david, that would be something to talk about.

Heh. This is what I was trying to get at earlier.
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[VOLatile]

that must mean that all of the artifacts from ancient Egypt should be immediately removed from any "non-religious" museum in the United States.

what about facsimiles of Gutenberg's press?

representations of religion have long been a part, even a staple of museums around the world. Including the WTC cross in a museum dedicated to the remembrance of 9/11 and the aftermath should be a no-brainer. It doesn't mean that Billy Graham, Jr. is going to be waiting at the door and sprinkling holy water on everybody who enters.

some of the more militant atheists act as if religious symbols are painful for them to be around. Whatever happened to tolerance? Is an inanimate object really going to threaten their belief system? If they don't believe in what a cross, crescent/moon, or Star of David represent, why should they care to encounter them in public places?

Problem is that this isn't on the same level as Egyptian artifacts or Gitenburg's Bible. It's a pop culture icon rather than an artifact, if anything.

Most militant atheists don't care that a cross, star, or crescent is displayed. The problem comes when they're displayed in government institutions and begin to endorse a religion.
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[droski]

Maybe, had the cross beam jumped out and thwarted the attack it would be something to talk about. The supernatural intervening after such horrid death and destruction is a little cold, IMO.
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"sorry i was busy when thousands of people died, but here's a cross so you know i luv ya!"

 

[therealUT]

"sorry i was busy when thousands of people died, but here's a cross so you know i luv ya!"

God: How do I prove to these people that I am their God? I will wait until they are brutally slain; at this point, when they think a loving God could not possibly allow such an atrocity, I will give them a miracle.

Michael: I think it will be a marvelous way to provide proof of your existence and your love when you resurrect the dead and heal their wounds. Glory to you, Lord!

God: Who said anything about resurrecting the dead? Now, fly down there and build me a steel cross in the rubble.
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[KiffinKiller]

Now watch this drive.

 

[therealUT]

Now watch this drive.

fyp

 

[Chris4Vols22]

It would be pushing his own agenda if he got went out and got a cross to put there. It being an artifact makes it different.

I don't see what difference it makes on how it was obtained; it's the principle of the way it's displayed. Absolutely astonishing artifact, but probably shouldn't be a part of a memorial like this. Keep it in the museum though. :hi:

 

[Chris4Vols22]

Now watch this drive.

:lolabove: Great job! :good!:

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Maybe, had the cross beam jumped out and thwarted the attack it would be something to talk about. The supernatural intervening after such horrid death and destruction is a little cold, IMO.
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God: I gave people free will and yet some still blame me for not controlling their decisions and actions.

"sorry i was busy when thousands of people died, but here's a cross so you know i luv ya!"

God: I intervene as I can by sending a symbol to let them know that I am with them, feel for them, and hopefully provide comfort to them... and yet some choose only to mock me.

Integrity.

"This is why some atheists really bother me." That was your headline, correct? I am going to assume that you read the entire article that you posted, if not than you are intellectually lazy. If so, then you chose to ignore what the actual spokesman for the American Atheists said and instead went with the incorrect interpretation by the author. You have as much of an agenda as the group you are calling out, except you are lying to achieve such an agenda.

I quoted the following...

American Atheists filed a lawsuit this week in state court arguing that the group opposes the placement of the cross in the museum because members believe it is the only religious article getting special accommodation there.

followed by my statement "So if I'm interpreting the above correctly..."

You quoted...

"This cross is now a part of the official WTC memorial. No other religions or philosophies will be honored. It will just be a Christian icon, in the middle of OUR memorial,” Dave Silverman, president of American Atheists, said in a release.

which seems to say essentially the same thing. Mr. Silverman is upset because in his opinion the only icon being included is a Christian symbol, and therefore he thinks other items should also be included.

You question my integrity, call me a liar, and accuse me of "excluding" a correct quote and using an "incorrect" statement by the author, when all I did was copy and paste what someone wrote with no intent other than provide information about the article. If I wanted to exclude something I would not have provided a link to the article.

God: Perhaps there are some people who I should not have let evolve, as neither their brain nor heart seem to have successfully made the transition.

Have a blessed day.

 

[therealUT]

So if I'm interpreting the above correctly, a group that doesn't believe in God is protesting because they're upset only one religious symbol for God is being represented. Seems like they would want none as a protest.

Personally, I would have no problem if there are other artifacts that should also be included. Sorry... it's just that the whole approach and reasoning behind the protest hits me the wrong way.

What you quoted are the words of the articles author, Amanda Plasencia. I am not sure why she wrote those exact words and/or why you chose to ignore the paragraph that followed:



Convenient how both you and Amanda left the "or philosophies" part out of your straw man.

That said, I could care less if the beams stayed or went; just, when you argue for your position do so with some integrity.

which seems to say essentially the same thing. Mr. Silverman is upset because in his opinion the only icon being included is a Christian symbol, and therefore he thinks other items should also be included.

You question my integrity, call me a liar, and accuse me of "excluding" a correct quote and using an "incorrect" statement by the author, when all I did was copy and paste what someone wrote with no intent other than provide information about the article. If I wanted to exclude something I would not have provided a link to the article.

Integrity.

 

[tvolsfan]

I don't see what difference it makes on how it was obtained; it's the principle of the way it's displayed. Absolutely astonishing artifact, but probably shouldn't be a part of a memorial like this the museum.

If it was found at the site and had importance to many people, I don't see why you wouldn't put it in the museum.

 

[IPorange]

God: Perhaps there are some people who I should not have let evolve, as neither their brain nor heart seem to have successfully made the transition.

I guess God didn't do a good job of making them?

Don't drop your "have a blessed day." I doubt anyone can read your responses and believe you're not pissed.

 

[VOLatile]

OP... Honestly, why does this lawsuit really bother you? The outcome will be of no consequence to you.
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