Thoughts on Roy Williams

#27
#27
JZVOL said:
would you say Boeheim recruited "losers" up until his 1 n.c. and is now recruiting them after that title?
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I would say that Boeheim lucked out by getting to face Collison, Heinrich, and Simeon in the National Championship game...
 
#28
#28
hatvol96 said:
Also, the idea that Roy Williams only maintained the historical status quo at Kansas is fallacious. How many Final Fours did Ted Ownes reach in his extended tenure at KU? The Williams era is easily the most successful sustained run in the history of Jayhawk Basketball.
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I would not say that four final four appearances in 15 years is all that much more successful than two in 5 years, one being a National Championship (Larry Brown).

I also would not completely disregard Phog Allens' success in Lawrence...
 
#29
#29
hatvol96 said:
Also, the idea that Roy Williams only maintained the historical status quo at Kansas is fallacious. How many Final Fours did Ted Ownes reach in his extended tenure at KU? The Williams era is easily the most successful sustained run in the history of Jayhawk Basketball.
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2.
 
#30
#30
therealUT said:
I would not say that four final four appearances in 15 years is all that much more successful than two in 5 years, one being a National Championship (Larry Brown).

I also would not completely disregard Phog Allens' success in Lawrence...
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You forgot a part of Brown's Kansas dossier. He left the program under a cloud that resulted in the Jayhawks being placed on probation.
 
#31
#31
therealUT said:
I would say that Boeheim lucked out by getting to face Collison, Heinrich, and Simeon in the National Championship game...
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That's not what I asked. Would you consider these players "losers"?

Derrick Coleman, John Wallace, Etan Thomas, Rony Seikaly, Billy Owens, Lawerence Moten and Sherman Douglas
 
#32
#32
Should I add a list of "losers" Lute Olsen recruited before he won a n.c.?
 
#34
#34
JZVOL said:
That's not what I asked. Would you consider these players "losers"?

Derrick Coleman, John Wallace, Etan Thomas, Rony Seikaly, Billy Owens, Lawerence Moten and Sherman Douglas
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JZVOL said:
Should I add a list of "losers" Lute Olsen recruited before he won a n.c.?
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You are trying to make a mass generalization about any coach who failed to win a championship from one comment I made about Roy Williams.

A basketaball coach at KU, UK, UNC, or UCLA will not be a great coach unless he wins a championship. Roy has been at KU and UNC, and he has never won a championship with his own guys.

Boeheim and Olsen, on the other hand, established their programs (they also won titles with their own guys, so I still fail to see your logic.) There is no great basketball lore surrounding the Orangemen (1918, 1926, and 2003) or the Wildcats.
 
#35
#35
therealUT said:
You are trying to make a mass generalization about any coach who failed to win a championship from one comment I made about Roy Williams.
A basketaball coach at KU, UK, UNC, or UCLA will not be a great coach unless he wins a championship. Roy has been at KU and UNC, and he has never won a championship with his own guys.
Boeheim and Olsen, on the other hand, established their programs (they also won titles with their own guys, so I still fail to see your logic.) There is no great basketball lore surrounding the Orangemen (1918, 1926, and 2003) or the Wildcats.
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So because Williams didn't win a title with his players he has recruited guys that don't know how to win, but what about other great coaches that didn't win a n.c.? Did they recruit "losers" or was it another factor?
I'm trying to make the point that if you say Williams recruits guys that can't win then you're gonna have to say that about a lot of other coaches.

The his players thing is lame IMO. Is there not something to be said for taking undeachieving players like at UNC and turning them into champions? Pearl won the SECE with other coaches players. Urban Meyer won with other coaches players.

There may not be lore surrounding those programs but there is around those coaches.
Is there no lore surrounding Tennessee football because we don't have 10 n.c.?
 
#36
#36
JZVOL said:
So because Williams didn't win a title with his players he has recruited guys that don't know how to win, but what about other great coaches that didn't win a n.c.? Did they recruit "losers" or was it another factor?
I'm trying to make the point that if you say Williams recruits guys that can't win then you're gonna have to say that about a lot of other coaches.

The his players thing is lame IMO. Is there not something to be said for taking undeachieving players like at UNC and turning them into champions? Pearl won the SECE with other coaches players. Urban Meyer won with other coaches players.

There may not be lore surrounding those programs but there is around those coaches.
Is there no lore surrounding Tennessee football because we don't have 10 n.c.?
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There is very little lore surrounding UT football.
 
#38
#38
Not at all. There is national and historic lore surrounding USC, ND, Michigan, Oklahoma...NOT UT.
 
#40
#40
I never said UT was as good as those programs historically but there is plenty of lore surrounding UT football. You mention Michigan who went from 1948 to 1997 with no n.c. Now you said Roy Williams doesn't recruit winners but put Michigan who went nearly 50 years with no national titles among the elite football schools. How does that work?
 
#41
#41
JZVOL said:
I never said UT was as good as those programs historically but there is plenty of lore surrounding UT football. You mention Michigan who went from 1948 to 1997 with no n.c. Now you said Roy Williams doesn't recruit winners but put Michigan who went nearly 50 years with no national titles among the elite football schools. How does that work?
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There is plenty of lore surrounding UT football in the state of Tennessee and amongst UT graduates.
 
#42
#42
The sort of "national lore" that you are apportioning out to the programs you mention is largely a function of the Eastern media's longtime fixation on Notre Dame as being equivalent to college football itself. Until just a couple of decades ago, the only thing that the national (read: NY) media cared about was Notre Dame and the teams in their circle: OSU, USC (who played ND every year), Michigan, etc. Oklahoma got a lot of press in the 70s, certainly, but most of what was happening down here in the south was below the national media's radar. The fact that Notre Dame, OSU, and USC have each (!) won more Heisman Trophies than the entire SEC tells you all you need to know about how below the radar southern football was for much of the 20th century.

Tennessee has as much history as any team out of this part of the country, except for Alabama. We are not a top five program, historically, but I'd think we're comfortably in the top ten.

(In no particular order, I'd say: ND, OSU, Michigan, USC, Alabama, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Texas, Tennessee, Penn State. The Florida schools are still catching up.)
 
#44
#44
Miami's roughly 200-250 wins behind most of the teams on that list; whether you put them in the all-time list depends on whether you think their last two decades vastly outweigh their previous 60 years of failure. And honestly, that's a valid argument, since Miami has been so dominant in most of the modern era of college football. I wouldn't argue too much with someone who put Miami in the top 10.
 
#45
#45
Vercingetorix said:
Miami's roughly 200-250 wins behind most of the teams on that list; whether you put them in the all-time list depends on whether you think their last two decades vastly outweigh their previous 60 years of failure. And honestly, that's a valid argument, since Miami has been so dominant in most of the modern era of college football. I wouldn't argue too much with someone who put Miami in the top 10.
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I think the 5 National Championships puts them firmly on it. The fact that they did it in 3 decades rather than 8 is, IMHO, a plus, not a minus.
 
#47
#47
So recruiting non-winners has been the demise of Williams' teams in the biggest games? Am I understanding that correctly? That couldn't be sillier. You've even used Dean Smith here as an example of a winner, but he's won less with more than anyone in the history of the game. MJ was a loser because his team only got it done his freshman year? Bash Williams all you'd like, but please have some evidence of his players not understanding something or being prepared, but not that he recruits losers.
 
#50
#50
While over time was not kind to TH, I still don't think that you can call him a loser who disappears under the spotlight.
 
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