Transgender athletes

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#26
#26
Let's go back to the beginning of "women's athletics". Why was the idea ever allowed in the first place? Why not just roll the ball out there and let the best person(M or F) win?

Answer (mine at least): Females (in general) according to the our species are smaller and less physically gifted from an athletic perspective. Believe me ... they are N-O-T less physically gifted. But, that's not what we're talking about here! This general athletic difference made it near impossible for the best female athletes to truly compete at the level with the best male athletes. Therefore they were generally overlooked and functionally left out of competition in the same way that a non-athletically gifted male would be. Women's athletics gave a more level "playing field"(no-pun intended) so that many females could compete at a level. Still, like non-athletic males, plenty of non-athletic females don't really have a place in women's athletics either. So the idea that "everyone" can compete is not a reality in M or F athletics.

Now, with the cultural introduction of biological males who psychologically identify as "females" (and a host of ever increasing 'categories' as well), those biological males desire to act/live like females in a cultural and relational way. I won't go into the myriad of differences, but sport would naturally seem to fall into one of those categories. But, in reality, no amount of hormone/testosterone fiddling is ever going to "undo" 12, 15, 18, 21, or 25 years worth of biological development. So, what we effectively have are men competing in women's sport. And it is a gigantic advantage generally speaking.

For example, if all men were allowed and desired to play in the WNBA, then I am very confident that not one single female would be left in that league this season. All the D-league, G-League, Euro-league males would totally take every roster spot. While the great Candice Parker or Diana Turasi are absolute legends and superstars in the women's game, they would not stand a chance of making a roster competing against the (2nd-tier if you will) not-currently-in-the-NBA males. Can you imagine Candice trying to beat out a Wayne Chism or a Kyle Alexander for a post position? Diana Turasi vs Chris Lofton or Jordan Bone for that last guard slot on the roster? Uhhh, don't give that a lot of thought please. And these are 2 absolute historical legends of the women's game.

So, the point of "women's athletics" was instituted to make a more level playing field so that females could participate at higher levels in the game(s). Allowing bio males in, squeezes females out. So, if women want to compete into adulthood in competitive sport, then change to the structure is going to have to take place if our society is going to embrace the idea of "transgenderism" going forward.

Options (mine at least): Ways to fix the coming cultural clash ...

#1 Abolish all gender discrimination now existing in high level sport. (It often is at children's levels) Just have Basketball, or Soccer etc, and quite attaching gender to it at all. May the best players play, period.
(-) Result: Women will disappear almost completely from high level sport and men will almost exclusively dominate them.
(+) Result: No more concerns about discrimination. Let the best player play.

#2 Clearly delineate Sport into 1, 2, or 3 (or more, bc who knows) Bio Male, Bio female, and Open(anyone). This delineates traditional males, females, or others into more evenly matched categories.
(-) Result: Pandoras box of complication and cost will be thrust upon all athletic administration. Cultural justice warriors may still not be satisfied with a static delineation in leagues.
(+) Result: Transgender athletes get a league tailor made to their identity.

#3 Let em' play as it is with Men's and Women's designations, and let the athlete identify however they choose and play in the grouping that matches their desires.
(-) Result: Bio males ultimately take over womens sport as transgenderism grows. Bio women ultimately are eliminated from high level sports altogether, not to mention the physical dangers to bio women in high contact sports.
(+)Result: The masses and traditionalists stay happy,while Social Justice Warriors get what they want by Men identifying as women dominating and getting high praise for being winners and role models.

#4 Have M and W sports as we currently do. And institutionalize the fact that biological males and females are identifiable at birth and with an XX or XY chromosome. Force delineation by birth sex (chromosomal reality) and only allow bio F and bio M to play in each league.
(-) Result: Social Justice Warriors will rage against the tyranny and injustice of identifying people the way human society has for 6,000 years of known human history.
(+) Mens and womens sports offer a more level competitive opportunity for both sexes.

That's my $.02 folks. Have at it.
 
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#27
#27
For me when it comes to athletics, fairness in competition trumps inclusivity every time. Look at the photo and tell me that it's a level playing field - 3 Connecticut female athletes file federal discrimination complaint over transgender competition
I am not homophobic or believe that transgender individuals should be treated badly, however, it is not fair play for females to compete with transgender athletes. What if a transgender female runs a 9.7 100 meters is that fair to call it a world record for females? I can see this getting to the point where females from birth will lose their desire to compete and that is not fair.
 
#28
#28
There is no sane scenario where a transgender woman should be allowed to compete with women. It will never be fair, it can never be fair. Anyone who insists upon it is at best blinded by their ideology, and at worst ... well ... no need to turn this into a debate. It's simply untenable.
 
#29
#29
I think there's a thoughtful debate to be had here but wow, the transphobia on this forum is intense.

GLSEN has shared some excellent resources that debunk some of the myths floated around on this board: Transgender Inclusion in High School Athletics

I think it's also important to think about how this plays out at the child/youth level vs. professional sports, considering that "lesbian, gay and bisexual high school students are almost five times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers, according to a 2015 report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And a study published in 2018 found that gender nonconforming youths are at even greater risk, with more than half of the transgender male teenagers attempting suicide over the three years they were followed." (NYTimes)

Last, Chris Mosier, a sprinter who was the first trans athlete to be selected for a U.S. National Team, has a great website with a guide to terminology (since some of you expressed that it was difficult to keep up), how to be a kind and respectful ally to trans people/athletes, and how different states/governnments/organizations/universities are ruling on trans rights: https://www.transathlete.com/starthere
 
#30
#30
At one time thought it had already happened.
OIP.zkSiZ5i75JanS-ADT5OaSgHaK7
Glory Johnson thought she was okay.
 
#32
#32
I think there's a thoughtful debate to be had here but wow, the transphobia on this forum is intense.

GLSEN has shared some excellent resources that debunk some of the myths floated around on this board: Transgender Inclusion in High School Athletics

I think it's also important to think about how this plays out at the child/youth level vs. professional sports, considering that "lesbian, gay and bisexual high school students are almost five times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers, according to a 2015 report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And a study published in 2018 found that gender nonconforming youths are at even greater risk, with more than half of the transgender male teenagers attempting suicide over the three years they were followed." (NYTimes)

Last, Chris Mosier, a sprinter who was the first trans athlete to be selected for a U.S. National Team, has a great website with a guide to terminology (since some of you expressed that it was difficult to keep up), how to be a kind and respectful ally to trans people/athletes, and how different states/governnments/organizations/universities are ruling on trans rights: https://www.transathlete.com/starthere


Open up a map and look at where you are.
Tennessee
Bible Belt

Any questions?
 
#36
#36
I have fought for the rights of women my entire adult life
My college graduation thesis was on Title IX

Been asked to coach males many times
Nope
I coach females, women/girls

No boys, no men (except for two circumstances in over 40 years of hardwood coaching)
and no transgenders

Females are complicating enough...I love solving their individual enigmatic perplexities.
I have no interest in learning a new ,,, gender??
 
#39
#39
I mean the ones that are jokingly ... I HOPE... posting pictures of current athletes and calling them Transgender or “Tranny”.

Call me a bleeding heart or whatever you want but I don’t think taking some pics of athletes and joking about them being transgender is even ok... why make a joke out of a group of people? I am not going to call anyone transgender who isn’t. Because to me that isn’t a joke or funny at all. I am sure it was in jest though.
In this PC world you have to be careful for sure. But you are telling me you’ve “never” looked at a person and could’ve sworn it was the opposite of what you thought? May have even talked to friend when seeing this person and said. Man I thought that was a guy/girl.
 
#40
#40
I'd love to know how many of you have a family member, friend, or even an acquaintance, who identifies as transgendered.

I'll start: Yes, I have a dear M2F transgendered friend, and I've had several T acquaintances over the years. Playing competitive sports is the last thing my particular friend would want to do, and she has said many times that M2Fs that she's known typically feel the same way. I say this only to suggest that it may always remain a fairly rare occurrence in women's sports.
 
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#41
#41
In this PC world you have to be careful for sure. But you are telling me you’ve “never” looked at a person and could’ve sworn it was the opposite of what you thought? May have even talked to friend when seeing this person and said. Man I thought that was a guy/girl.

Of course that situation has happened. I am a teacher so I deal with students who identify as transgender and of course I wonder if they are a male or female because I don’t want to offend.

But I wouldn’t post their pic in jest joking that a team won a championship with a transgender athlete who isn’t transgender.
 
#44
#44
In this PC world you have to be careful for sure. But you are telling me you’ve “never” looked at a person and could’ve sworn it was the opposite of what you thought? May have even talked to friend when seeing this person and said. Man I thought that was a guy/girl.

It isn't about that...that happens often.
This is about persons born men that want to be identified as women and compete against women.

It is totally unfair :

The current men's world record is 9.58 seconds, set by Jamaica's Usain Bolt in 2009, while the women's world record of 10.49 seconds set by American Florence Griffith-Joyner in 1988 remains unbroken.

The slowest world record time for men since the beginning of timing the 100 meters is
10.06 Bob Hayes
23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States Tokyo, Japan October 15, 1964

This could feasibly set women's progress back over 50 years.
Add a third gender/competition and be done with it
 
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#46
#46
I'm all for transgender athletes but it is an unfair advantage for most biological males to participate in women's sports. If they had an "open" 3rd league or separate division that all genders could participate in...I'd be cool with that.
 
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#47
#47
I think there's a thoughtful debate to be had here but wow, the transphobia on this forum is intense.

GLSEN has shared some excellent resources that debunk some of the myths floated around on this board: Transgender Inclusion in High School Athletics

I think it's also important to think about how this plays out at the child/youth level vs. professional sports, considering that "lesbian, gay and bisexual high school students are almost five times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers, according to a 2015 report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And a study published in 2018 found that gender nonconforming youths are at even greater risk, with more than half of the transgender male teenagers attempting suicide over the three years they were followed." (NYTimes)

Last, Chris Mosier, a sprinter who was the first trans athlete to be selected for a U.S. National Team, has a great website with a guide to terminology (since some of you expressed that it was difficult to keep up), how to be a kind and respectful ally to trans people/athletes, and how different states/governnments/organizations/universities are ruling on trans rights: https://www.transathlete.com/starthere

I appreciate you bringing the fight to the forum but it won't do you any favors here since a lot of people are stuck in their old ideologies.
 
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#49
#49
It isn't about that...that happens often.
This is about persons born men that want to be identified as women and compete against women.

It is totally unfair :

The current men's world record is 9.58 seconds, set by Jamaica's Usain Bolt in 2009, while the women's world record of 10.49 seconds set by American Florence Griffith-Joyner in 1988 remains unbroken.

The slowest world record time for men since the beginning of timing the 100 meters is
10.06 Bob Hayes
23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States Tokyo, Japan October 15, 1964

This could feasibly set women's progress back over 50 years.
Add a third gender/competition and be done with it
It is about that. At least with the quote that I replied to. You took my reply and made something out of nothing.
 
#50
#50
Let's go back to the beginning of "women's athletics". Why was the idea ever allowed in the first place? Why not just roll the ball out there and let the best person(M or F) win?

Answer (mine at least): Females (in general) according to the our species are smaller and less physically gifted from an athletic perspective. Believe me ... they are N-O-T less physically gifted. But, that's not what we're talking about here! This general athletic difference made it near impossible for the best female athletes to truly compete at the level with the best male athletes. Therefore they were generally overlooked and functionally left out of competition in the same way that a non-athletically gifted male would be. Women's athletics gave a more level "playing field"(no-pun intended) so that many females could compete at a level. Still, like non-athletic males, plenty of non-athletic females don't really have a place in women's athletics either. So the idea that "everyone" can compete is not a reality in M or F athletics.

Now, with the cultural introduction of biological males who psychologically identify as "females" (and a host of ever increasing 'categories' as well), those biological males desire to act/live like females in a cultural and relational way. I won't go into the myriad of differences, but sport would naturally seem to fall into one of those categories. But, in reality, no amount of hormone/testosterone fiddling is ever going to "undo" 12, 15, 18, 21, or 25 years worth of biological development. So, what we effectively have are men competing in women's sport. And it is a gigantic advantage generally speaking.

For example, if all men were allowed and desired to play in the WNBA, then I am very confident that not one single female would be left in that league this season. All the D-league, G-League, Euro-league males would totally take every roster spot. While the great Candice Parker or Diana Turasi are absolute legends and superstars in the women's game, they would not stand a chance of making a roster competing against the (2nd-tier if you will) not-currently-in-the-NBA males. Can you imagine Candice trying to beat out a Wayne Chism or a Kyle Alexander for a post position? Diana Turasi vs Chris Lofton or Jordan Bone for that last guard slot on the roster? Uhhh, don't give that a lot of thought please. And these are 2 absolute historical legends of the women's game.

So, the point of "women's athletics" was instituted to make a more level playing field so that females could participate at higher levels in the game(s). Allowing bio males in, squeezes females out. So, if women want to compete into adulthood in competitive sport, then change to the structure is going to have to take place if our society is going to embrace the idea of "transgenderism" going forward.

Options (mine at least): Ways to fix the coming cultural clash ...

#1 Abolish all gender discrimination now existing in high level sport. (It often is at children's levels) Just have Basketball, or Soccer etc, and quite attaching gender to it at all. May the best players play, period.
(-) Result: Women will disappear almost completely from high level sport and men will almost exclusively dominate them.
(+) Result: No more concerns about discrimination. Let the best player play.

#2 Clearly delineate Sport into 1, 2, or 3 (or more, bc who knows) Bio Male, Bio female, and Open(anyone). This delineates traditional males, females, or others into more evenly matched categories.
(-) Result: Pandoras box of complication and cost will be thrust upon all athletic administration. Cultural justice warriors may still not be satisfied with a static delineation in leagues.
(+) Result: Transgender athletes get a league tailor made to their identity.

#3 Let em' play as it is with Men's and Women's designations, and let the athlete identify however they choose and play in the grouping that matches their desires.
(-) Result: Bio males ultimately take over womens sport as transgenderism grows. Bio women ultimately are eliminated from high level sports altogether, not to mention the physical dangers to bio women in high contact sports.
(+)Result: The masses and traditionalists stay happy,while Social Justice Warriors get what they want by Men identifying as women dominating and getting high praise for being winners and role models.

#4 Have M and W sports as we currently do. And institutionalize the fact that biological males and females are identifiable at birth and with an XX or XY chromosome. Force delineation by birth sex (chromosomal reality) and only allow bio F and bio M to play in each league.
(-) Result: Social Justice Warriors will rage against the tyranny and injustice of identifying people the way human society has for 6,000 years of known human history.
(+) Mens and womens sports offer a more level competitive opportunity for both sexes.

That's my $.02 folks. Have at it.
I vote for #1. When most women's sports are completely decimated because of the fact they cannot physically compete with elite male athletes, perhaps TPTB will realize how foolish they were.
 
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