Trut

[tvolsfan]

I actually did that yesterday.

 

[rjd970]

I always thought the Christian apprehension about sex ultimately had to do with Mary, and her birth canal being a one-way street.

 

[KiffinKiller]

who cares? we need to procreate.

 

[rjd970]

who cares? we need to procreate.

As long as we follow certain rules and don't do anything out of the ordinary.

 

[VOLatile]

As long as we follow certain rules and don't do anything out of the ordinary.

But it's so much fun trying to get a girl to give up the b-hole...

 

[rjd970]

:lolabove:

 

[Gramps]

Everything I read in the Gospels support the view that Mary was a normal woman.
After Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary began normal marrige relations and had several other children. The Bible calls four brothers of Jesus by name in Matthew and Mark.
James, Joses, Simon and Judah. It also mentions sisters.

 

[VOLatile]

Jose? Mary and Joseph had a Mexican son?

 

[Gramps]

Jose? Mary and Joseph had a Mexican son?

Its Joses, I left the s off end, sorry

 

[VOLatile]

Its Joses, I left the s off end, sorry

Mexican conjoined twins?

 

[therealUT]

Everything I read in the Gospels support the view that Mary was a normal woman.
After Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary began normal marrige relations and had several other children. The Bible calls four brothers of Jesus by name in Matthew and Mark.
James, Joses, Simon and Judah. It also mentions sisters.

Depending upon which Gospel one decides to state as supreme, those same four are also not of blood relation. The 'sons of thunder' are specifically mentioned as being the sons of another man.

 

[KiffinKiller]

the sons of Thor are in the bible? wwttff?

 

[Gramps]

Depending upon which Gospel one decides to state as supreme, those same four are also not of blood relation. The 'sons of thunder' are specifically mentioned as being the sons of another man.

The Bible says they are the children of Joseph the carpenter and Mary.

If I recall , you use the NAS version:

Matthew 13:54-56
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

54 He came to [a]His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 6:3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.





Matthew 1-22-28 says the Mary remained a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus, which indicates Joseph and Mary had normal sexual relations after Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:22-28
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22 Now all this [a]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” 24 And Joseph [c]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [d]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Matthew 1:22-28
King James Version (KJV)


22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[Gramps]

Depending upon which Gospel one decides to state as supreme, those same four are also not of blood relation. The 'sons of thunder' are specifically mentioned as being the sons of another man.

The sons of thunder was 2 of the disciples, James and John the sons of Zebedee.

Mark 3:13-19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)


The Twelve Are Chosen
13 And He *went up on the mountain and *summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach, 15 and to have authority to cast out the demons. 16 And He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter), 17 and [a]James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, “Sons of Thunder”); 18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and [c]James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the [d]Zealot; 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.

 

[rjd970]

Silly gramps, what texts actually say means little next to context and interpretation.

This is how we know Islam is really a peaceful religion and that business about talking snakes, floods, and whatnot in the bible were really allegorical...nobody ever believed it to be really true...not really.

 

[therealUT]

The Bible says they are the children of Joseph the carpenter and Mary.

If I recall , you use the NAS version:

Matthew 13:54-56
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

54 He came to [a]His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 6:3
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.





Matthew 1-22-28 says the Mary remained a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus, which indicates Joseph and Mary had normal sexual relations after Jesus was born.

Matthew 1:22-28
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22 Now all this [a]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” 24 And Joseph [c]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [d]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Matthew 1:22-28
King James Version (KJV)


22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mark 1

16

9 As he passed by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting their nets into the sea; they were fishermen.

17

Jesus said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men."

18

Then they abandoned their nets and followed him.

19

He walked along a little farther and saw James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They too were in a boat mending their nets.

20

Then he called them. So they left their father Zebedee in the boat along with the hired men and followed him.

==================================
29

On leaving the synagogue he entered the house of Simon and Andrew with James and John.

NASB

To say that these men are of blood relation is a stretch. Brothers, adelphi, very common in Greek texts to indicate friendship, following, cousins, nephews, etc.

Jesus could have had brothers and sisters; there could have been three different James in the Gospel of Mark (heck, there are already two).

 

[Gramps]

Silly gramps, what texts actually say means little next to context and interpretation.

This is how we know Islam is really a peaceful religion and that business about talking snakes, floods, and whatnot in the bible were really allegorical...nobody ever believed it to be really true...not really.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Gramps]

To say that these men are of blood relation is a stretch. Brothers, adelphi, very common in Greek texts to indicate friendship, following, cousins, nephews, etc.

Jesus could have had brothers and sisters; there could have been three different James in the Gospel of Mark (heck, there are already two).

You are talking about completely different men and you are very well aware of that.

The Bible says that 2 of Jesus desciples, James and John, were the sons of Zebedee and He gave the name Boanerges, which means, “Sons of Thunder"


The Bible also says Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

 

[therealUT]

You are talking about completly different men and you are very well aware of that.

This is true but only because I like the sons of thunder. The other James is the son of Alphaeus, again, not the son of Joseph and Mary.

The Bible says that 2 of Jesus desciples, James and John, were the sons of Zebedee and He gave the name Boanerges, which means, “Sons of Thunder"

Best nicknames in the Bible.

The Bible also says Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

Correct; again, this comes down to the use of the words αδελφος and αδελφαι in Greek texts. From Homer forward, these two words were used to denote many types of relations that were not blood relations, specifically, not relations of two persons having the same biological parents.

 

[therealUT]

Anyway, the only reason this is an issue is because Catholics want to hold on the idea that Mary remained a Virgin her entire life and Protestants want to hold on to the idea that she did not, and both Catholics and Protestants want to hold to the idea that Jesus was a historical person and these stories are not simply that: stories.

Back to the issue with Paul and sex, and your retort that he was pro-sex because he said that Bishops and Deacons should be married:

Timothy
Chapter 3

1

1 This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.

2

Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,

3

not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.

4

He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity;

5

for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?

6

He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil's punishment.

7

He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil's trap.

8

Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain,

9

holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

10

Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11

Women, similarly, should be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in everything.

12

Deacons may be married only once and must manage their children and their households well.

13

Thus those who serve well as deacons gain good standing and much confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.

14

I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.

15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

16

Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

NASB

I have never read this as an admonition that Bishops and Deacons should be married but simply as an admonition that if they are, they can only have been married once and that if they have children those children better be well-behaved and serve as examples to the community.

That said, here is what Paul says specifically about marriage and weakness:

1 Corinthians
Chapter 7

1

Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"

2

but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.

3

The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.

4

A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.

5

Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.

6

This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command.

7

Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

8

Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,

9

but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

10

To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): a wife should not separate from her husband

11

- and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband - and a husband should not divorce his wife.

12

To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her;

13

and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband.

14

For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy.

15

If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace.

16

For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

17

Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the churches.

18

Was someone called after he had been circumcised? He should not try to undo his circumcision. Was an uncircumcised person called? He should not be circumcised.

19

Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God's commandments.

20

Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called.

21

Were you a slave when you were called? Do not be concerned but, even if you can gain your freedom, make the most of it.

22

For the slave called in the Lord is a freed person in the Lord, just as the free person who has been called is a slave of Christ.

23

You have been purchased at a price. Do not become slaves to human beings.

24

Brothers, everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called.

25

Now in regard to virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

26

So this is what I think best because of the present distress: that it is a good thing for a person to remain as he is.

27

Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife.

28

If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.

29

I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them,

30

those weeping as not weeping, those rejoicing as not rejoicing, those buying as not owning,

31

those using the world as not using it fully. For the world in its present form is passing away.

32

I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.

33

But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

34

and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35

I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.

36

If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married.

37

The one who stands firm in his resolve, however, who is not under compulsion but has power over his own will, and has made up his mind to keep his virgin, will be doing well.

38

So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.

39

A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes, provided that it be in the Lord.

40

She is more blessed, though, in my opinion, if she remains as she is, and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

NASB

So, according to Paul, sex is not sinful it just takes you away from God and you are better off without having sex...He is very much anti-sex.

 

[Gramps]

This is true but only because I like the sons of thunder. The other James is the son of Alphaeus, again, not the son of Joseph and Mary.


Trut, You are a very smart man and just a tad tricky.

From my understanding there are 3 men in the NT named James.
1. James the son of Zebedee and brother of John--the sons of thunder. James, John and Peter were disciples that were in Jesus' innermost circle.

2. James, the son of Alphaeus, was also one of the 12 disciples. He may be "James the younger"

3. James, the brother of Jesus. see below...

Best nicknames in the Bible.

agree

Correct; again, this comes down to the use of the words αδελφος and αδελφαι in Greek texts. From Homer forward, these two words were used to denote many types of relations that were not blood relations, specifically, not relations of two persons having the same biological parents.

There is debate as to the exact meaning of "the Lords brother". It could mean a literal brother or stepbrother, a relative, or a close friend or associate.
With that said, when talking about James, the brother of Jesus, Bible specifically states in Matthew:
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
That is very specific.[/B]

 

[KiffinKiller]

Anyway, the only reason this is an issue is because Catholics want to hold on the idea that Mary remained a Virgin her entire life and Protestants want to hold on to the idea that she did not, and both Catholics and Protestants want to hold to the idea that Jesus was a historical person and these stories are not simply that: stories.

Back to the issue with Paul and sex, and your retort that he was pro-sex because he said that Bishops and Deacons should be married:



I have never read this as an admonition that Bishops and Deacons should be married but simply as an admonition that if they are, they can only have been married once and that if they have children those children better be well-behaved and serve as examples to the community.

That said, here is what Paul says specifically about marriage and weakness:



So, according to Paul, sex is not sinful it just takes you away from God and you are better off without having sex...He is very much anti-sex.

paul was clearly gay.

 

[Gramps]

Anyway, the only reason this is an issue is because Catholics want to hold on the idea that Mary remained a Virgin her entire life and Protestants want to hold on to the idea that she did not, and both Catholics and Protestants want to hold to the idea that Jesus was a historical person and these stories are not simply that: stories.


Very true. Catholics must maintain that view of Mary per their Dogmas. No where in the Bible supports that belief.

Per the Bible, Mary was just a woman..

There is a vast differences in the Catholic and Protestant religions. I am a Baptist and there are many differences in the Baptist and Protestant and more differences with the Catholic. Yet they are all grouped together as one religion.

Back to the issue with Paul and sex, and your retort that he was pro-sex because he said that Bishops and Deacons should be married:


Paul does not believe that one should have sex outside of marriage.

I have never read this as an admonition that Bishops and Deacons should be married but simply as an admonition that if they are, they can only have been married once and that if they have children those children better be well-behaved and serve as examples to the community.

I agree with the above statment 100%.
I will also add to the above that if married, their wife must meet the same standards.


That said, here is what Paul says specifically about marriage and weakness:



So, according to Paul, sex is not sinful it just takes you away from God and you are better off without having sex...He is very much anti-sex.

I disagree with your opinion.
I think if he was so anti-sex he would have made it clear that a bishop and deacon could not be married and have children.
I do think Paul is very much anti sex as far as fornication and adultry is concerned.

 

[therealUT]

Marian Devotion is a weird beast in the Catholic Church (disclaimer: Catholics do not pray to Mary). The Immaculate Conception (the pure conception of Mary, not of Jesus) was not made Church Dogma until 1854. Basically, the Church claims that Mary had to have been pure in order to be the vessel that carried Jesus; in order for Mary to have been pure, she must have been conceived immaculately. Personally, I do not understand how the Church avoids an infinite regression in this stance. If Mary was pure, then wouldn't her mother have had have been pure, and her mother's mother, and her mother's mother's mother, and so on. Not exactly the most consistent thoughts.

I disagree with your opinion.
I think if he was so anti-sex he would have made it clear that a bishop and deacon could not be married and have children.
I do think Paul is very much anti sex as far as fornication and adultry is concerned.

Do you think Paul is pro-sex? He clearly states that marriage is only for those who do not have enough self-control to be celibate. To me, this means that he thinks sex is not good; yet, he understands that not everyone is as great and as self-controlled as he and, therefore, they can have sex in the confines of marriage...but, they really should not get married and should not have sex.

 

[Gramps]

Marian Devotion is a weird beast in the Catholic Church (disclaimer: Catholics do not pray to Mary). The Immaculate Conception (the pure conception of Mary, not of Jesus) was not made Church Dogma until 1854. Basically, the Church claims that Mary had to have been pure in order to be the vessel that carried Jesus; in order for Mary to have been pure, she must have been conceived immaculately. Personally, I do not understand how the Church avoids an infinite regression in this stance. If Mary was pure, then wouldn't her mother have had have been pure, and her mother's mother, and her mother's mother's mother, and so on. Not exactly the most consistent thoughts.

The Dogmas concerning Mary does not hold true with Bible


Do you think Paul is pro-sex? He clearly states that marriage is only for those who do not have enough self-control to be celibate. To me, this means that he thinks sex is not good; yet, he understands that not everyone is as great and as self-controlled as he and, therefore, they can have sex in the confines of marriage...but, they really should not get married and should not have sex.

I think the Bible teaches that sex is a gift from God. The Song of Solomon in the OT is a good example. I also believe it teaches that marital sex is natural, all other forms of sexual activity are condemned and sinful.
I think Paul continues to teach the same thing as the other Bible writers. He understands that we all have sexual urges but as with any sin, he teaches to not give into those urges, to remain pure until marriage. I do not think he teaches not to have sex if you are in a marrige. In Corinthians 7: 2-5 Paul teaches to avoid fornication let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her on husband.
The wife is to submit to her husband and the husband is to submit to his wife. If every man and woman should marry and submit to their spouse, then I think Paul is saying sex is okay, within the marriage. I may be wrong but that is my understanding.