Turkey Has A Decision To Make: F-35 or S-400?

#52
#52
Rasputin_Vol said:
A downgrade from the F-35? Lol... what kinf od finished product were they going to get with the F-35?
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They would have gotten a multirole (air and geound attack) aircraft capable of VTOL and stealth . Su-35 can do neither. F35 can do ground attack and can do it well. F35 can do air superiority and do it well.

The Su35 would undoubtedly smoke the F35 in a one on one dogfight, but the F35 with its superior radar, avionics, and stealth, could blow the Su 35 out of the sky before it would have time to react.

Never mind the fact that the F35 is a 5th generation modern fighter jet, while the Su35 is based on a 4th gen design from the 70s.
 
#53
#53
Last edited by a moderator:
#54
#54
Orangeburst65 said:
Why don't you ask the dozen for so nations that have already ordered or already flying around 400 aircraft?
Another 478 on order today.

Lockheed Martin's F-35 fighter program gets $34 billion Pentagon contract, its biggest yet
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From your own link...

The F-35, the crown jewel in the defense giant’s portfolio, has become one of the most challenged programs in the history of the Department of Defense. The laundry list of setbacks includes faulty ejection seats, software delays and significant helmet-display issues. The program had an initial acquisition cost of $406.5 billion.
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#55
#55
Rasputin_Vol said:
From your own link...
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The majority of these planes are for foreign orders as the US is prohibited from buying multi year until it goes completes OTE.
They still have to resolve simulation training issue for achieve complete this. It has been very costly and much delayed, but these problems are resolved and planes are operational worldwide. With this contract they will be under the promised $80 million, which is quite an achievement.
 
#56
#56
Orangeburst65 said:
The majority of these planes are for foreign orders as the US is prohibited from buying multi year until it goes completes OTE.
They still have to resolve simulation training issue for achieve complete this. It has been very costly and much delayed, but these problems are resolved and planes are operational worldwide. With this contract they will be under the promised $80 million, which is quite an achievement.
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So you are fully aware of the issues the F-35 has had, yet when I asked the question, you acted as though I was pulling stuff out of my arse.

Rasputin_Vol said:
A downgrade from the F-35? Lol... what kind of finished product were they going to get with the F-35?
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Right now, even you are admitting that the finished product that these countries will be getting may be a concern.
 
#57
#57
Rasputin_Vol said:
So you are fully aware of the issues the F-35 has had, yet when I asked the question, you acted as though I was pulling stuff out of my arse.


Right now, even you are admitting that the finished product that these countries will be getting may be a concern.
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I did not act like you pulled it out of your ass. Obviously I was sincere or I would not have mentioned it. The plane is operational and the Joint Simulation Environment has never been apart of another program. This plane is poised for major success purchased by dozens of nations and thousands of orders.
You would be justified to complain a few years ago, but not now.
 
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#58
#58
Rasputin_Vol said:
A downgrade from the F-35? Lol... what kind of finished product were they going to get with the F-35?
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The F-35 is fine for the mission it was designed to do. The SU-35 and F-35 really aren’t comparable platforms. And you’re talking out your ass on the F-35 capabilities. If that plane winds up in a dogfight the pilot has screwed up. The sensor suite and automation make the F-35 special, not the airframe.
 
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#59
#59
Orangeburst65 said:
I did not act like you pulled it out of your ass. Obviously I was sincere or I would not have mentioned it. The plane is operational and the Joint Simulation Environment has never been apart of another program. This plane is poised for major success purchased by dozens of nations and thousands of orders.
You would be justified to complain a few years ago, but not now.
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Correct.
 
#60
#60
Matt2496 said:
They would have gotten a multirole (air and geound attack) aircraft capable of VTOL and stealth . Su-35 can do neither. F35 can do ground attack and can do it well. F35 can do air superiority and do it well.

The Su35 would undoubtedly smoke the F35 in a one on one dogfight, but the F35 with its superior radar, avionics, and stealth, could blow the Su 35 out of the sky before it would have time to react.

Never mind the fact that the F35 is a 5th generation modern fighter jet, while the Su35 is based on a 4th gen design from the 70s.
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I don’t think I would put the F-35 in an air superiority role with a peer competitor. In fact an SU-35 could probably give an F-35 fits with equal pilots and a close in dogfight. The IRST on the SU-35 is pretty damn nice.
 
#61
#61
NorthDallas40 said:
I don’t think I would put the F-35 in an air superiority role with a peer competitor. In fact an SU-35 could probably give an F-35 fits with equal pilots and a close in dogfight. The IRST on the SU-35 is pretty damn nice.
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Matt2496 said:
They would have gotten a multirole (air and geound attack) aircraft capable of VTOL and stealth . Su-35 can do neither. F35 can do ground attack and can do it well. F35 can do air superiority and do it well.

The Su35 would undoubtedly smoke the F35 in a one on one dogfight, but the F35 with its superior radar, avionics, and stealth, could blow the Su 35 out of the sky before it would have time to react.

Never mind the fact that the F35 is a 5th generation modern fighter jet, while the Su35 is based on a 4th gen design from the 70s.
Click to expand...
 
#64
#64
Agree with the above
F35 isnt supposed to dogfight near peers. The F22 is THE air superiority fighter on planet Earth. An F15 or 16 would win all or most dogfights with an F35 if they were to face off with equal skilled pilots* ... but 35s shouldn't ever make it in close enough to dogfight anyway as posted before. It can track dozens of fighters at a time at great distances...like out to 100 miles...then launch new missiles with vectored thrust that can track and close on enemy planes...from 100 miles plus out...then have a reserve burst of speed to use when they close in for the kill. Vectored thrust and speed burst are both new tech that allows these missiles to outmaneuver and out accelerate any enemy fighter, making them far, far more lethal than the dated sidewinder and sparrows of past generations. Much of what they can do is still classified...but it is widely believed that unlike their peers and predecessors, our new missiles can use multiple systems to target and track...like radar AND infrared, and can now be launched when the nose of the plane isnt even pointed at the target.

That stuff we saw in Top Gun where our pilots had to fight to get right behind an enemy jet to get "missile lock" ...then fire missiles and watch them miss...are all things of the past. We can "fire and forget, " now from 100 miles away and wait for the big BOOM...even when we arent even pointed in the direction of the enemy. Our technology is miles better than what the Chicoms or Russkies have

God bless America
 
#71
#71
marcusluvsvols said:
F35 isnt supposed to dogfight near peers. The F22 is THE air superiority fighter on planet Earth. An F15 or 16 would win all or most dogfights with an F35 if they were to face off with equal skilled pilots*
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The reports coming out of Red Flag and other tests the last couple of years proves this theory false!
 
#72
#72
Hunerwadel said:
I've often wondered if our most sophisticated military equipment is delivered to foreign entities with a kill switch. Or some method of disabling certain functions.
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Here's a very old story about this type of sale. In the 1960's the US sold 12 F-5 Freedom Fighters to Libya. They were stationed at Wheelus AFB just outside of Tripoli. We (USAF) provided all the maintenance so no Libya trained personnel to support the aircraft. Second, we wouldn't sell them center line fuel tanks so they were limited to a range of 500 miles, preventing them from being able to attach Egypt. When they kicked us out they had no trained maintenance people and the F-5s were basically useless.
 
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#73
#73
CagleMtnVol said:
The reports coming out of Red Flag and other tests the last couple of years proves this theory false!
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At distance, the F35 can remain stealthy against the F16 for sure...the new F15X not so sure, and have a solid advantage.

Close or visual distance, the F35 will get reamed by either the F15 or F16. Stealth is pretty much all the F35 has going for it, and it comes at a huge price just like with the F22...NO exterior missiles or fuel tanks or stealth is gone. So while an F15 can carry a dozen missiles for varying distances/ scenarios, the F35 and F22 can carry 4 missiles each internally. That sucks, but being basically invisible to radar doesn't.

Once stealth is out the window due to distance, the F35 is a fat girl that is neither fast nor maneuverable. The 15 or 16 can both turn and accelerate better...and will eat the 35s lunch in a dogfight. The F22 has vectored thrust and is both fast and maneuverable...and there's probably not a scenario where a 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft can shoot down an F22. The f35 simply doesn't have dogfighting skills though. Its too heavy, too slow, and turns like a school bus. Thank God it has stealth and can "super cruise" without afterburner though...except it burns up the stealth coating on the azz of the plane and causes it to lose stealth....

The F35 so far has been a boondoggle. Hopefully it doesn't end that way..
But the jury is still out. For every article out there gushing over it, there are 2 articles about it being late, over budget, and not performing as well as it should.
 
#74
#74
marcusluvsvols said:
At distance, the F35 can remain stealthy against the F16 for sure...the new F15X not so sure, and have a solid advantage.

Close or visual distance, the F35 will get reamed by either the F15 or F16. Stealth is pretty much all the F35 has going for it, and it comes at a huge price just like with the F22...NO exterior missiles or fuel tanks or stealth is gone. So while an F15 can carry a dozen missiles for varying distances/ scenarios, the F35 and F22 can carry 4 missiles each internally. That sucks, but being basically invisible to radar doesn't.

Once stealth is out the window due to distance, the F35 is a fat girl that is neither fast nor maneuverable. The 15 or 16 can both turn and accelerate better...and will eat the 35s lunch in a dogfight. The F22 has vectored thrust and is both fast and maneuverable...and there's probably not a scenario where a 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft can shoot down an F22. The f35 simply doesn't have dogfighting skills though. Its too heavy, too slow, and turns like a school bus. Thank God it has stealth and can "super cruise" without afterburner though...except it burns up the stealth coating on the azz of the plane and causes it to lose stealth....

The F35 so far has been a boondoggle. Hopefully it doesn't end that way..
But the jury is still out. For every article out there gushing over it, there are 2 articles about it being late, over budget, and not performing as well as it should.
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Clean wings with internal stores and a heck of internal fuel fraction beats an F-16 with wing tanks every time. The one thing aviators always desire is Fuel, over thrust and performance. An uber fighter with limited range is worthless.

There is a reason that clean F-5's and F-16's are used at Red Flag as adversaries and even A-4's at Fallon.
 
#75
#75
CagleMtnVol said:
The reports coming out of Red Flag and other tests the last couple of years proves this theory false!
Click to expand...
So there’s a rather famous biased piece about an early F-35 tangling with an F-16 and it shows a skewed outcome.

In most engagements today the first sign the F-16 pilot has that he’s in trouble is when the missile hits his aircraft.

The strength in the F-35 isn’t it’s turning fight prowess. The strength is in its ability to cheat and not wind up in that turning fight.
 
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