Union-Busting Turns WI Schoo Right Side Up

#26
#26
MG1968 said:
is there any evidence that smaller class sizes result in better education?
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That I know of, smaller classroom sizes result in better education when the number is as small as 3-5. Classrooms with 3-5 students are not feasible in public education.
 
#27
#27
milohimself said:
That's true, but there is also truth to the fact that classes with 15-20 are better for everyone involved (except I guess the taxpayer). .
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Our school district has an excellent ratio and a low cost per student. They perform above avg compared to other state districts. Private Christian schools our kids have attended spent less than $5k per year per student and outperformed neighboring public schools that spent more than twice that amount.

More money spent does not ensure either quality or small class size. High teachers' salaries and per student spending do not ensure quality and work against small class size.

Teacher's unions are a MAJOR part of the problem rather than a part of the solution.
 
#28
#28
MG1968 said:
then how do colleges and universities do it?
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Lots of teaching assistants, and more responsibility on the students at the college level. Primary/secondary education is very different than university education in terms of student responsibility.
 
#30
#30
IPorange said:
Lots of teaching assistants, and more responsibility on the students at the college level. Primary/secondary education is very different than university education in terms of student responsibility.
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One of my economics professors said something funny along this line. He said that college students violated fundamental economic behavioral "law". Nowhere else will you see people pay so much for something so potentially valuable... then work as hard as they can NOT to get their money's worth.
 
#31
#31
A forum thread quoting a blog quoting some unidentified source, and somewhere in that translation it becomes, not just accepted fact, but given credibility in terms of the argument gleaned from the "facts."

I think the gsvol approach to political discourse on the VN has a new proponent.
 
#32
#32
sjt18 said:
Yes. And it is more critical the lower you go.
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I'm just trying to remember my elementary school days, and I don't recall ever being in a class that had less than 30 students. This is back in the early to mid-70's, long before the internet and even before Carter created the department of education.

Is more hands-on critical now because of mainstreaming? Once upon a time teachers could have disruptive students removed from their classrooms and the developmentally disabled had their own classes. Now, teachers have to identify what learning type an individual child is and create various sub-curricula. He or she is then forced to divide their attention. I can understand how this necessitates smaller class size, but don't see how it leads to a better overall education.
 
#33
#33
lawgator1 said:
A forum thread quoting a blog quoting some unidentified source, and somewhere in that translation it becomes, not just accepted fact, but given credibility in terms of the argument gleaned from the "facts."

I think the gsvol approach to political discourse on the VN has a new proponent.
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The funniest thing in all this is that you don't recognize yourself as the near mirror image of gs... minus the cartoons. Who more than you has swallowed and regurgitated more unfounded stereotypes than you? Who here has assumed to know more about what others were thinking than you?
 
#34
#34
lawgator1 said:
A forum thread quoting a blog quoting some unidentified source, and somewhere in that translation it becomes, not just accepted fact, but given credibility in terms of the argument gleaned from the "facts."

I think the gsvol approach to political discourse on the VN has a new proponent.
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The large majority of the blog entry comes from the Washington Examiner. Though, I'm sure that doesn't change your opinion of the information since it doesn't suit you. You would know this had you actually read the blog article.

Union curbs rescue a Wisconsin school district | Byron York | Politics | Washington Examiner
 
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#35
#35
I think class size depends on material, teaching method and type of student. Saying 15 - 20 is optimal is too much of a generalization.

I've had 15-17 and for some exercises/projects/discussions it's simply too small for the best learning environment. For my approach, 25-30 is optimal.
 
#36
#36
volinbham said:
I think class size depends on material, teaching method and type of student. Saying 15 - 20 is optimal is too much of a generalization.

I've had 15-17 and for some exercises/projects/discussions it's simply too small for the best learning environment. For my approach, 25-30 is optimal.
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You must be doing a lot of group-oriented stuff?

I think low numbers are most important in physical science lab environments. It's a lot of individual work, and there's usually a lot of guidance needed.
 
#37
#37
That being said, I've taught large lab sessions and life goes on for both me and the students. Just have to suck it up sometimes.
 
#38
#38
Some of my classes at BYU were 500-800 students, and not just required generals like Biology, but also Econ. It was insane. Is that normal in other large universities?
 
#39
#39
volinbham said:
I think class size depends on material, teaching method and type of student. Saying 15 - 20 is optimal is too much of a generalization.

I've had 15-17 and for some exercises/projects/discussions it's simply too small for the best learning environment. For my approach, 25-30 is optimal.
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A relative of mine who had 30+ years experience as
a public school teacher said the bigger the better
had worked for her, some of her best classes had
well over 30 students.

However I think the best I ever attened myself had
8 students per instructor.

Very intensive but rewarding program.





sjt18 said:
Our school district has an excellent ratio and a low cost per student. They perform above avg compared to other state districts. Private Christian schools our kids have attended spent less than $5k per year per student and outperformed neighboring public schools that spent more than twice that amount.

More money spent does not ensure either quality or small class size. High teachers' salaries and per student spending do not ensure quality and work against small class size.

Teacher's unions are a MAJOR part of the problem rather than a part of the solution.
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A couple or so years ago Bredesen cut our district by
a million $$ even though we had added a new hs that
doubled the number of high schools in the county.

Meanwhile he added four million $$ to the Memphis
district.

It made me think that the number of votes count
more than the educations of the students.

As for the private schools, the Beka program will
have students two years ahead of public schools
by two grade levels in no time and have them
doing college level work by the 7th grade.

There is no comparison really.

I was talking with some of the people I went to
school with a few years ago and they all send their
children to private schools or home schooled them.

Actually there is no public high school within a
reasonable distance.

White working class people are at the bottom of the
priority list in our modern class warfare political
system.

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#40
#40
nbakerld said:
Some of my classes at BYU were 500-800 students, and not just required generals like Biology, but also Econ. It was insane. Is that normal in other large universities?
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Very. It dictates the method of evaluation: tests, usually multiple choice of the scan-tron variety.
 
#41
#41
My average undergrad class size was about 15. Nowhere to hide in that setting.
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#42
#42
As far as high school, I believe the schools need to have advanced options available that hopefully will be smaller by natural selection. I know my AP physics class only had a handful of students because few wanted to take it. That was very beneficial to me heading into college.

And the same for college. Everything else, it's not necessary. So far with my experiences in public high school and UT, my educational opportunities have been just fine. If I wanted to take an advanced course, it was generally small. If it was basic chem or econ, it was 200+. But those are so cookie cutter it doesn't matter. High school was on a smaller scale, but the same.

I don't hate the system as much as everyone here. But I do like the idea of open enrollment.
 
#43
#43
High school class size should obviously be dependent on what type of class is being taught. For instance, a science or math class should be smaller and more hands on, but an english/phys ed/history/etc. class can be larger because they are less teacher intensive.
 
#44
#44
As to large college survey courses vs a K-12 environment: College students are there because they paid to be there and want to be there. Maturity also plays a role. In K-12 education more students than you think are there because of compulsory attendence laws. Granted a large portion realize the importance of a good education and make the effort. There's also an alarming number of kids that come solely to socialize and because they are required by law. They have little interest in education. This causes problems that must be dealt with on an all too frequent basis that takes away from instruction time.

Also, due to special education laws and No Child Left Behind requirements, very little discipline exists in schools today. What most in the general public don't know is that a special ed student with ANY learning disability cannot be suspended for more than 10 days. If they commit a major offense (a gun) they can be placed outside the school for no more than 45 days, and the school must provide an education in the form of homebound, alternative school, etc after 10 days. Only a court order can definitely impact a special ed student's long term placement if a parent pushes the issue of being suspended. If a non special ed student does the same, they will be gone for a calendar year with no education provided. Parents of average students need to be up in arms about this. Their kids are the ones that are shortchanged severely. I have a degree in Special Education. I lasted 7 years before I got sick of the BS and went to get another degree to get out. Enough ranting, but I will say that a classroom education is NOT for EVERY child. Japan doesn't do this. They have vocational apprenticeship programs. Other countries only test their academic/collegebound students. We test them all. This is PART of the discrepency in test score among nations.
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#45
#45
Sorry, one more thing. In the old days, compulsory attendance ages were much lower. By high school, in essence, many of the kids that didn't want to be there, weren't. An unmotivated student tends to cause more disruption than a motivated student. There have been kids that I tried my best to reach to no avail.
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