USDA requesting .40 cal semi-automatic weapons (w/30 rd magazines)

#4
#4
Far less range than an AR and doesn't penetrate Level 3A body armor.

By all means, buy them up.
 
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#7
#7
Grand Vol said:
lol, no. Far better and more lethal platforms for that kind of thing.
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Hear me out on this: It's far from the most accurate, most lethal type of weapon. However, it is a very adequate weapon to give someone that has very little training and where accuracy is not required. It's a weapon that works best firing into a crowd.

What would be the purpose of them purchasing these?
 
#8
#8
I haven't had a chance to read the article, I will when I get home , but you do realise the USFS, and NPS both fall under the dept of agriculture. They both have legitimate law enforcement divisions, and .40 cal is standard LE equipment.
 
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#10
#10
chatsworth_vol said:
I haven't had a chance to read the article, I will when I get home , but you do realise the USFS, and NPS both fall under the dept of agriculture. They both have legitimate law enforcement divisions, and .40 cal is standard LE equipment.
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Now there you go bringing up facts in the politics forum :crazy:
 
#11
#11
Ok, after reading it, it seems reasonable . Normal LE carry tactical rifles now days. Especially after that west Hollywood shootout years ago. Why wouldn't you equip an officer who in most cases is operating alone or with back up 1+ hours away the same stuff.
 
#13
#13
chatsworth_vol said:
Ok, after reading it, it seems reasonable . Normal LE carry tactical rifles now days. Especially after that west Hollywood shootout years ago. Why wouldn't you equip an officer who in most cases is operating alone or with back up 1+ hours away the same stuff.
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Except that there shouldn't be a department of agriculture in the first place.
 
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#15
#15
chatsworth_vol said:
Ok, after reading it, it seems reasonable . Normal LE carry tactical rifles now days. Especially after that west Hollywood shootout years ago. Why wouldn't you equip an officer who in most cases is operating alone or with back up 1+ hours away the same stuff.
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The firearms nut in me says "why a sub machine gun?" Especially when the M4 and AR platforms have been shown go be far superior in design and ability.

The sub gun they bought is more of a cool Daddy toy rather than a serious fighting weapon.
 
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#18
#18
Grand Vol said:
The firearms nut in me says "why a sub machine gun?" Especially when the M4 and AR platforms have been shown go be far superior in design and ability.

The sub gun they bought is more of a cool Daddy toy rather than a serious fighting weapon.
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Well the ar based weapons have their own issues. From a rifle you can have issues with over penetrating, and 2 seperate ammo types to keep up with, store, and order. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of the ar, and love mine. With the pistol round based tactical weapon over pen can be less of an issue. Plus it uses the same ammo as their standard sidearm, this can simplify the logistics of supplying ammo plus may allow more efficient bulk purchases. As for this being a true submachine gun I'm not sold on that. They specifically state they want semi auto or 2 round burst. These aren't al capnoe tommy guns or uzis we're talking about.
 
#19
#19
chatsworth_vol said:
As for this being a true submachine gun I'm not sold on that. They specifically state they want semi auto or 2 round burst. These aren't al capnoe tommy guns or uzis we're talking about.
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Strictly speaking it'd be hard not to call a carbine designed to fire pistol cartridges at a rate higher than one shot per trigger pull anything other than a submachine gun. If you or I wanted to own one I imagine that's the definition the ATF would use.
 
#20
#20
chatsworth_vol said:
Well the ar based weapons have their own issues. From a rifle you can have issues with over penetrating, and 2 seperate ammo types to keep up with, store, and order. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of the ar, and love mine. With the pistol round based tactical weapon over pen can be less of an issue. Plus it uses the same ammo as their standard sidearm, this can simplify the logistics of supplying ammo plus may allow more efficient bulk purchases. As for this being a true submachine gun I'm not sold on that. They specifically state they want semi auto or 2 round burst. These aren't al capnoe tommy guns or uzis we're talking about.
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You are over thinking a government need for simplicity lol

And actually with penetration, tests have shown an 5.56 penetrates less than a lot of pistol rounds.
 
#21
#21
hndog609 said:
Strictly speaking it'd be hard not to call a carbine designed to fire pistol cartridges at a rate higher than one shot per trigger pull anything other than a submachine gun. If you or I wanted to own one I imagine that's the definition the ATF would use.
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You do have a point, yes they would , but then again they call everything magazine fed and black an assault rifle. I was trying to use common sense, I know that's not the government's strong suit. Hell it's not even their weak suit, I don't think they even know it exists.


Grand Vol said:
You are over thinking a government need for simplicity lol

And actually with penetration, tests have shown an 5.56 penetrates less than a lot of pistol rounds.
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I will grant you the 1st point, this IS the government we're talking about. The same applies here that I said above about common sense.

On the second point I think I did say (or meant to say) maybe and generally. There are a lot of variables with that. bullet weight, bullet styles, actual impact area, range, and other variables.

All that said, I don't mean any of this as a strike against AR's. I support their use and have no problem with them at all. I was just trying to point out that going for a different platform wasn't completely illogical. Their choice is a valid option. Trying to avoid the Jack booted SS government thug conspiracies.
 
#22
#22
All I ask is why in Gods name does the USDA need these? Farmers getting out of line?
 
#24
#24
chatsworth_vol said:
You do have a point, yes they would , but then again they call everything magazine fed and black an assault rifle. I was trying to use common sense, I know that's not the government's strong suit. Hell it's not even their weak suit, I don't think they even know it exists.
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According to the BATF, anything that fires more than a single round with a single pull of the trigger is classified as "automatic." Even burst fire counts.


chatsworth_vol said:
On the second point I think I did say (or meant to say) maybe and generally. There are a lot of variables with that. bullet weight, bullet styles, actual impact area, range, and other variables.
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Overall though, the 5.56 is a better performer in the close quarters realm which is why many/most tac teams are going back to that round these days. Even JHP rounds from sub guns tend to over penetrate.

chatsworth_vol said:
All that said, I don't mean any of this as a strike against AR's. I support their use and have no problem with them at all. I was just trying to point out that going for a different platform wasn't completely illogical. Their choice is a valid option. Trying to avoid the Jack booted SS government thug conspiracies.
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Just has be thinking this was someone's personal favorite and wannabe cool gun. It's H&K, which automatically means it has a price tag that will make you cringe. And secondly, it's against the grain of what most federal agencies are issuing as shoulder fired arms.

But...again, range is reduced and a pistol round even from a sub gun isn't going to penetrate level 3A body armor, so I'll be happy myself. I can take longer shots :)
 
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