UT under potential NCAA investigation for NIL

[onevol74]

The NCAA's beef with UT and Spyre seems to center around the fact that Nico signed with Spyre, then UT.

It's obvious Spyre is designed to fund NIL for UT, signing almost all athletes ALREADY COMMITTED to UT.

The NCAA thinks that with Nico UT had Spyre make the offer and that there was SOME kind of assurance Nico would sign at UT.

The NCAA, foolishly in this Wild West era, wants to "maintain that it doesn't allow pay-for-play" deals to go: schools pay first, then you sign. The NCAA prefers: you sign, then schools pay.

I get the NCAA's position. Legally, what good are they if schools can go out, have their collective offer money to a player and have some kind of agreement the player will then sign with their school? The NCAA is dead after the UT and VA lawsuit, IMO.

Unlike others, I don't want the NCAA to completely die. I can't imagine another organization being allowed to form which maintains any semblance of the "college football" game.

It's going to be EXTREMELY hard legally to keep players from being seen legally as employees and even harder without the NCAA taking all the lawsuits for the schools. It's going to be EXTREMELY hard legally to make an employee tasked with playing football take courses like Geology "for their own good."

The NCAA sucks. They screwed thousands of athletes by not planning ahead for this BUT they keep the ruse of college football as "student athletes." Without the NCAA, I don't think a new organization can legally form using that model. The Courts seem to consistently find it illegal.

Does not matter what the NCAA may think. They did not have a rule in place to address the situation and are trying to apply something to UT that did not exist.

 

[rjd970]

Does not matter what the NCAA may think. They did not have a rule in place to address the situation and are trying to apply something to UT that did not exist.

This seems to get lost in the shuffle. The NOA (from my understanding) is around Spyre paying for a private jet to take Nico to Knoxville for an unofficial visit. It has always been against the rules for boosters to do this.

The issue as I see it is the NCAA did not designate collectives as boosters until May 2022. The recruiting trip in question took place in March 2022. This was Plowman's grief in the letter she posted shortly after news leaked of the allegations. The NCAA rules on collectives has been constantly changing and unclear from the beginning and they are now trying to retroactively apply rules to situations where the rule didn't exist.

In May 2022, the NCAA issued new guidance aimed at limiting the influence of NIL collectives and reaffirming its mission to prevent “pay to play.” The guidance focuses on the word “booster” and reiterates that, under current NCAA rules, a booster is not just an individual, but includes corporate entities and organizations that are known by a university to promote, or that have promoted, their athletic program or its student-athletes.

NCAA Takes Aim At Booster-backed “Collectives” and Their NIL Deals - Davis+Gilbert LLP

Marketers considering participating in NIL collectives must evaluate the NCAA enforcements as well as the purpose and rules of the NIL collective to avoid being caught up in an investigation and lawsuits.

www.dglaw.com

If you read closely, it states that the focus on enforcement of recruiting inducements by collectives (who are now boosters) will be forward looking, but only the most egregious cases that are contrary to the interim guidance will be retroactively pursued. Here is the problem with that, this is the interim policy from Summer of 2021:

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/NIL/NIL_InterimPolicy.pdf

This is nebulous at best, and worthless at worst. It even states very clearly:

Use of a professional services provider is also permissible for NIL activities, except as otherwise provided by a state law or executive action with the force of law that has not been invalidated or rendered unenforceable by operation of law

So this whole thing is a witch hunt and the NCAA was clearly hoping UT would cave given we are on probation. At the end of the day, when Spyre arranged a flight for Nico, there was no clear rule that they couldn't do it. That rule wasn't established until 3 months after the trip took place.

I don't think the NCAA realized that UT had enough of this. UT is doing nothing different than any other school is doing and are being targeted so the NCAA can show they still have some control. Aside from that, UT went all in leveled a lawsuit claiming the NCAA is violating the Sherman Act.

If I'm misunderstanding something I'm open to being corrected but I've tried to not speak uninformed, but speak with links backing it up.

 

[Orange defense]

Never heard of "Sports Talk J", but it's a bit difficult to take them seriously if they don't know the difference between "cite" and "site".

I just listen to him from time to time. He is an info getter, and I don’t have time to look to see what’s happening, so I just listen to him, and get caught up on things.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Does not matter what the NCAA may think. They did not have a rule in place to address the situation and are trying to apply something to UT that did not exist.

Since the NCAA hands out the punishments, it does matter what they think. They aren't, as we've seen, necessarily fair and equitable in their punishment nor enforcement.

In court, the states of TN and VA may sue them for Antitrust and destroy them, but if they survive long enough, we have limited ability to appeal an NCAA punishment.

They aren't bound to "get it right" and often haven't.

 

[onevol74]

Since the NCAA hands out the punishments, it does matter what they think. They aren't, as we've seen, necessarily fair and equitable in their punishment nor enforcement.

In court, the states of TN and VA may sue them for Antitrust and destroy them, but if they survive long enough, we have limited ability to appeal an NCAA punishment.

They aren't bound to "get it right" and often haven't.

They are subject to selective enforcement which UT can take them to court and sue them for millions of dollars.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

They are subject to selective enforcement which UT can take them to court and sue them for millions of dollars.

That's been the case since forever but.......

 

[onevol74]

That's been the case since forever but.......

We have never had a Donde with balls before.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

We have never had a Donde with balls before.

Nor have any other schools? C'mon, the NCAA hasn't JUST singled out TN over the years for lousy enforcement.

They've been tough to appeal AND as far as I can recall, no one sued them for selective enforcement either.

 

[Godfatha]

Since the NCAA hands out the punishments, it does matter what they think. They aren't, as we've seen, necessarily fair and equitable in their punishment nor enforcement.

In court, the states of TN and VA may sue them for Antitrust and destroy them, but if they survive long enough, we have limited ability to appeal an NCAA punishment.

They aren't bound to "get it right" and often haven't.

The NCAA can't enforce something that they did not have a rule for, and also which is illegal if they did try to enforce it.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The NCAA can't enforce something that they did not have a rule for, and also which is illegal if they did try to enforce it.

Apparently that's exactly what they are investigating, though, which prompted the response from Spyre, Donde Plowman, Danny White, etc.

Whether they can or cannot, they seem to be investigating Spyre as a booster and an arranged flight by Spyre as being from a booster.

It looks like the NCAA believes they CAN enforce something, what I'm not sure, or they're stirring up crap for no reason.

 

[Woodlawn VOL]

Nor have any other schools? C'mon, the NCAA hasn't JUST singled out TN over the years for lousy enforcement.

They've been tough to appeal AND as far as I can recall, no one sued them for selective enforcement either.

The NCAA isn’t winning this in the long run. Folks have seen enough. The courts have pretty much warned them. But believe what you want, they aren’t going to win their NIL argument in court. But folks will believe what they want to believe. GBO

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The NCAA isn’t winning this in the long run. Folks have seen enough. The courts have pretty much warned them. But believe what you want, they aren’t going to win their NIL argument in court. But folks will believe what they want to believe. GBO

Agreed. They'll lose the NIL argument, but ruling that the flight Nico took to Knoxville was supplied by a booster is apparently what they're investigating. That rule is pre-NIL, I'm sure.

The lawsuit about NIL will be a win for TN and VA, easily IMO.

The NCAA rules about booster involvement APPEAR to have been changed to include collectives AFTER that flight Nico took, so that investigation seems bogus also, but NCAA rules about boosters aren't the same thing as the NCAA NIL rules they're getting sued over.

 

[Woodlawn VOL]

Agreed. They'll lose the NIL argument, but ruling that the flight Nico took to Knoxville was supplied by a booster is apparently what they're investigating. That rule is pre-NIL, I'm sure.

The lawsuit about NIL will be a win for TN and VA, easily IMO.

The NCAA rules about booster involvement APPEAR to have been changed to include collectives AFTER that flight Nico took, so that investigation seems bogus also, but NCAA rules about boosters aren't the same thing as the NCAA NIL rules they're getting sued over.

They aren’t going to win on either account. GBO

 

[Godfatha]

Agreed. They'll lose the NIL argument, but ruling that the flight Nico took to Knoxville was supplied by a booster is apparently what they're investigating. That rule is pre-NIL, I'm sure.

The lawsuit about NIL will be a win for TN and VA, easily IMO.

The NCAA rules about booster involvement APPEAR to have been changed to include collectives AFTER that flight Nico took, so that investigation seems bogus also, but NCAA rules about boosters aren't the same thing as the NCAA NIL rules they're getting sued over.

If collectives = boosters then pretty sure every major program in the country should be punished. Tennessee is doing nothing different than Ohio State, Georgia, Alabama. The money from collectives largely come from boosters.

 

[ptcarter]

Agreed. They'll lose the NIL argument, but ruling that the flight Nico took to Knoxville was supplied by a booster is apparently what they're investigating. That rule is pre-NIL, I'm sure.

The lawsuit about NIL will be a win for TN and VA, easily IMO.

The NCAA rules about booster involvement APPEAR to have been changed to include collectives AFTER that flight Nico took, so that investigation seems bogus also, but NCAA rules about boosters aren't the same thing as the NCAA NIL rules they're getting sued over.

Hyams was on Big Orange Sunday (Doug Mathews show, you can find the podcast pretty easy). He said (paraphasing) some in the NCAA think Tennessee skated on the Pruitt things and wanted to use this for further punishment. He said he "hoped this wasn't the case, but there is much speculation this could be what precipitated it". And I can see how the NCAA might be thinking they did us a favor. We didn't have to pay a buyout to Pruitt, and that was huge for the university, but I also heard the monetary fine was the most ever levied (I can't verify that, just passing on stuff I've heard), so really instead of paying Pruitt, we paid them.

The part I wonder about is why did they leak the story? The response by Plowman and Tennessee (state of) indicates, that even before the leak, they knew it was coming. So what is the motive for leaking, and if we knew already, that hints of a prior leak. I guess having NCAA sniffing around for a year or so - it was easy to connect the dots, or perhaps one of those sniffers (accidently?) let the cat out of the bag. I'd sure like to know how this all precipitated.

It reeks of incompetence by the NCAA, but BVS says wait until the "fat lady sings" before declaring (with orange colored glasses) the opera over. I have a feeling that if there is any way they can bar Nico from playing next season, they might play that card, even if they know they will eventually lose. NCAA has the "guilty until proven" power and delaying tactics to draw this thing out. Yes. I know this post will be answered with "We got this, step off the ledge", and I think common sense says we no way they can keep Nico off the field. I just think they might be butthurt and exposed, and they don't like it one bit, and and whatever retaliation they can come up with to punish us, even if eventually it get's overturned. I think we are still in the crosshairs, but they don't have a sniper rifle anymore, maybe a shotgun with bird shot, but it's still aimed at us.

 

[Zues1]

Play Nico and tell the NCAA to kiss it.....
What are they going to do, walk out on the field in the middle of a TV game and stop the game?

 

[Sudden Impact]

Hyams was on Big Orange Sunday (Doug Mathews show, you can find the podcast pretty easy). He said (paraphasing) some in the NCAA think Tennessee skated on the Pruitt things and wanted to use this for further punishment. He said he "hoped this wasn't the case, but there is much speculation this could be what precipitated it". And I can see how the NCAA might be thinking they did us a favor. We didn't have to pay a buyout to Pruitt, and that was huge for the university, but I also heard the monetary fine was the most ever levied (I can't verify that, just passing on stuff I've heard), so really instead of paying Pruitt, we paid them.

The part I wonder about is why did they leak the story? The response by Plowman and Tennessee (state of) indicates, that even before the leak, they knew it was coming. So what is the motive for leaking, and if we knew already, that hints of a prior leak. I guess having NCAA sniffing around for a year or so - it was easy to connect the dots, or perhaps one of those sniffers (accidently?) let the cat out of the bag. I'd sure like to know how this all precipitated.

It reeks of incompetence by the NCAA, but BVS says wait until the "fat lady sings" before declaring (with orange colored glasses) the opera over. I have a feeling that if there is any way they can bar Nico from playing next season, they might play that card, even if they know they will eventually lose. NCAA has the "guilty until proven" power and delaying tactics to draw this thing out. Yes. I know this post will be answered with "We got this, step off the ledge", and I think common sense says we no way they can keep Nico off the field. I just think they might be butthurt and exposed, and they don't like it one bit, and and whatever retaliation they can come up with to punish us, even if eventually it get's overturned. I think we are still in the crosshairs, but they don't have a sniper rifle anymore, maybe a shotgun with bird shot, but it's still aimed at us.

Assumption on my part, If the administration knew this was coming (Dec 15) would this be the reason Nico started the Bowl game over Milton? I know there were a lot of factors in this, but the puzzle pieces seem to fit. Gained More media coverage, recruiting and a look to the future.

I don't think for one minute that the NCAA will not allow NICO to play football at UTK next yr nor will the NCAA continue to pursue this to a decision against the Vols. Personally at this moment, I think the NCAA is trying to figure out a way to get a draw out of this situation.

Doing So would be like a DEATH PENALTY in reverse. In essence, The nail in the coffin for the NCAA. Even if it lasts for a couple of years it cuts against the basic principles of the NCAA which is to protect the student athletes.

It would be like having an Air pellet gun with no pellets.

 

[Manchester Vol]

North Carolina alcoholics Association
NCAA ???

I like to drink too, but I’m not going to tell a football program what to do.

 

[ptcarter]

Assumption on my part, If the administration knew this was coming (Dec 15) would this be the reason Nico started the Bowl game over Milton. I know there were a lot of factors in this, but the puzzle pieces seem to fit. Gained More media coverage, recruiting and a look to the future.

I don't think for one minute that the NCAA will not allow NICO to play football at UTK next yr nor will the NCAA continue to pursue this to a decision against the Vols.

Doing So would be like a DEATH PENALTY in reverse. In essence, The nail in the coffin for the NCAA. Even if it lasts for a couple of years it cuts against the basic principles of the NCAA which is to protect the student athletes.

It would be like having an Air pellet gun with no pellets.

I'm off the ledge..
There is a precedent about protecting student athletes and it's not a good look for the NCAA. Look at Tez Walker at UNC and Darrell Jackson at FSU. NCAA doesn't seem to be doing the right thing nor acting like they care.

I once took a hard stance on the NCAA keeping scholarships as the form of payment and stopping there. I've changed my tune. Why? Basically I'm degusted by the hypocrisy mentioned in the previous paragraph. Also the amount of money the TV contracts are - many people getting rich on the backs of these guys.

Now the powers that be are going to part with a cut of this $$$ that will now be going to the players. The sharing of revenue stream that has flowed unimpeded over the years is really making many cough up a hairball. Follow the money.

I'm old, but how college football evolves - I probably won't be around to see how it shakes out. It could make it better, it could make it worse. Better in that hopefully some parity will occur and the Bama's, Georgia's, Ohio State's etc will be equalized by not being able to sit a 5* for several years. They will migrate to a place where they can get on the field. On the other hand - I can see a model where the players are employees of the school, and like the NFL, the players may be making more than the coaches. No classes, no diplomas - The schools become an employer for a semi-pro (and adding "semi" is redundant, face it they are pro). College teams will be basically pro football, and colleges become "Jerry Jones" and are letting the pro team use the stadiums on campus as the venue. The loyalty that bonds someone to a school is, in part, the memories of going to classes, going to parties etc. Yep, some of that will stick and there will still be VFL's, but lets say you loved Peyton as a Colt. Did it bother you to see him in a Denver jersey? (Edit: We actually saw that with Henry T.) And what would it be like to be on a college campus, but not be "in school"? Dunno - I guess some don't make it to class anyway.

Bottom line, the college football is morphing from what it was when I was in school in the '70s. For better or worse, it's going through a door that will close behind and it will never get back to that again.

 

[TheDeeble]

If collectives = boosters then pretty sure every major program in the country should be punished. Tennessee is doing nothing different than Ohio State, Georgia, Alabama. The money from collectives largely come from boosters.

The NCAA wants to make an example of someone. Probably similar to the SMU death penalty. Maybe not as harsh, but given Tennessee has sued them, it will be significant if they get their way. Sure other programs may be doing the same thing. NCAA might possibly investigate some of them in the future. But they want to set a standard first. That's what they're trying to do now.

 

[Sudden Impact]

The NCAA wants to make an example of someone. Probably similar to the SMU death penalty. Maybe not as harsh, but given Tennessee has sued them, it will be significant if they get their way. Sure other programs may be doing the same thing. NCAA might possibly investigate some of them in the future. But they want to set a standard first. That's what they're trying to do now.

The problem I have with the NCAA is that they have no standards, never really created the standards and stayed vague for 3+years regarding NIL and Portal Transfers.

Kept changing or adding to the rules and then in Tennessee's case it appears tried to Grandfather Tennessee violations into to the newer rules. Reason for doing so they thought We would be an easy target.

The NCAA desperation to be the boss is pathetic. They could have fixed this but they chose to go to Congress and SCOTUS to anoint them as King of the NCAA. That plan backfired.

So now they are using us as an attempt to regain control. The leak was intentional I would assume because someone at the NCAA disagreed with what they were doing or Someone at the NCAA was as a show of force. Either way it has backfired.

Emmert retired for a reason.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Hyams was on Big Orange Sunday (Doug Mathews show, you can find the podcast pretty easy). He said (paraphasing) some in the NCAA think Tennessee skated on the Pruitt things and wanted to use this for further punishment. He said he "hoped this wasn't the case, but there is much speculation this could be what precipitated it". And I can see how the NCAA might be thinking they did us a favor. We didn't have to pay a buyout to Pruitt, and that was huge for the university, but I also heard the monetary fine was the most ever levied (I can't verify that, just passing on stuff I've heard), so really instead of paying Pruitt, we paid them.

The part I wonder about is why did they leak the story? The response by Plowman and Tennessee (state of) indicates, that even before the leak, they knew it was coming. So what is the motive for leaking, and if we knew already, that hints of a prior leak. I guess having NCAA sniffing around for a year or so - it was easy to connect the dots, or perhaps one of those sniffers (accidently?) let the cat out of the bag. I'd sure like to know how this all precipitated.

It reeks of incompetence by the NCAA, but BVS says wait until the "fat lady sings" before declaring (with orange colored glasses) the opera over. I have a feeling that if there is any way they can bar Nico from playing next season, they might play that card, even if they know they will eventually lose. NCAA has the "guilty until proven" power and delaying tactics to draw this thing out. Yes. I know this post will be answered with "We got this, step off the ledge", and I think common sense says we no way they can keep Nico off the field. I just think they might be butthurt and exposed, and they don't like it one bit, and and whatever retaliation they can come up with to punish us, even if eventually it get's overturned. I think we are still in the crosshairs, but they don't have a sniper rifle anymore, maybe a shotgun with bird shot, but it's still aimed at us.

My feeling is the NCAA is "falling on its sword" because it sees the handwriting on the wall about Antitrust Law violations.

The SEC and B1G almost immediately after this leak started "exploring directions" and I think everyone is trying to put together what a "post-NCAA" world looks.

I've said previously, given what the NCAA is facing in Antitrust Law lawsuits, I don't think another college amateur athletics organization can be formed which isn't in violation of the Sherman Act.

The NCAA sucks but can it be replaced with an organization which doesn't directly compensate the players, ie., make them employees?

By going after UT and perhaps many others, the NCAA is forcing the schools to look at the REAL possibility of what college athletics will look like without the NCAA.

My prediction is: it will not be "student athletes" competing but professional athletes connected to the school only by name, not as students.

IMO, that would suck worse than the NCAA.

 

[Delmar]

Play Nico and tell the NCAA to kiss it.....
What are they going to do, walk out on the field in the middle of a TV game and stop the game?

Absolutely agree. If they were to dare to do that, I’d play him and tell them to wiz up a rope. Similar to what Wyatt Earp said in Tombstone after the Gunfight at the OK Corral: “I don’t think I’ll let you arrest us today Behan.”

 

[volfan102455]

Play Nico and tell the NCAA to kiss it.....
What are they going to do, walk out on the field in the middle of a TV game and stop the game?

The question would probably be how our opponents would react. Would all the other teams walk away from the NCAA? Or would they stay, play and declare a win because UT played a player deemed ineligible? So even if we are 12-0 all the opponents get that win. The only way it works is if other schools do the same thing.

 

[volfan102455]

My prediction is: it will not be "student athletes" competing but professional athletes connected to the school only by name, not as students.

IMO, that would suck worse than the NCAA.

Agree- and I would be out. And I doubt it would be the University of Tennessee Vols anymore - probably the Knoxville something or other. If I want to watch professional sports, there is the NFL, the NBA, the MLB and their minor league teams in Chattanooga and Knoxville.

It is the affiliation with the traditions associated with the universities and their alumni that make college sports different.

The NCAA and the various Universities need to figure this out - or it will destroy both of them.