Vermont single payer health insurance

#27
#27
utgibbs said:
I'm sorry to hear about your wife. I can't imagine the ordeal. I know how damn lucky my family is.

I know the US does well with cancer, and I hope this serves your wife well.
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My wife should be fine. Thanks for your concern. As far as we know she's already cancer free.

I didn't mean to change the tone of the thread. I feel like I killed the roll you were on.
 
#29
#29
nbakerld said:
Well, I think I backed it up. And they are rankings. By design there's a subjective element.
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How did you demonstrate that it was political? Because it didn't weight responsiveness as much as you'd (subjectively) like?
 
#30
#30
nbakerld said:
My wife should be fine. Thanks for your concern. As far as we know she's already cancer free.

I didn't mean to change the tone of the thread. I feel like I killed the roll you were on.
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I wasn't going to start quoting data after that.

It's great to hear she is (fingers crossed) cancer free.

I really can't imagine what it is like for a loved one to go on chemo. I just lost an Air Force friend to cancer; he had just turned 40. It was just unbelievable to watch him atrophy, and he's by far the closest person in my circle to suffer from this damned disease.

And I know how damn lucky me and my family are.
 
#31
#31
IPorange said:
How did you demonstrate that it was political? Because it didn't weight responsiveness as much as you'd (subjectively) like?
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Yeah, you are right I didn't back that up. I recognize that my preferences are subjective. Thanks.

My opinion on the WHO is that because it is a special agency of the UN, it's going to have certain political leanings. The WHO has some weird practices, like they don't hire tobacco users. Plus in general I don't trust anything that is related to the UN.
 
#32
#32
utgibbs said:
Wrong in almost every particular.

I'm very well versed in the methodology, and the WHO report remains the most comprehensive, cited, and rigorous study on the world's health care system.

And it is positively ridiculous to go down the "stratification" angle. Access to care is probably THE most important metric in any health care system.

The US system does well with responsiveness; that's its one success. But in every other metric it lags far, far behind the single-payer models.

And it is easy to understand why: there is no incentive for efficiency in a private system. This is borne out in the data as well. Thanks to Swiss and Munich Re, the Swiss and German systems are highly private. And they are #2 and #3 in per capita expenditure for health care (although far lower than us).
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Thanks for stubbornly refusing to read what I cited from the report. Ignorance is bliss, huh?
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#33
#33
I like what Vermont is doing... If the state wants to do it, let them. Good for them.

But as others have said, the problem lies in the cost of any healthcare in this country. Phony malpractice suits taking insurance premiums into the stratosphere, poor promotion and personal accountability for peoples individual health care (take better care of yourself and you won't be sick so much, dummy), etc.
 
#34
#34
milohimself said:
I like what Vermont is doing... If the state wants to do it, let them. Good for them.

But as others have said, the problem lies in the cost of any healthcare in this country. Phony malpractice suits taking insurance premiums into the stratosphere, poor promotion and personal accountability for peoples individual health care (take better care of yourself and you won't be sick so much, dummy), etc.
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The ability to sue anyone for anything here is ridiculous.
 
#35
#35
milohimself said:
I like what Vermont is doing... If the state wants to do it, let them. Good for them.

But as others have said, the problem lies in the cost of any healthcare in this country. Phony malpractice suits taking insurance premiums into the stratosphere, poor promotion and personal accountability for peoples individual health care (take better care of yourself and you won't be sick so much, dummy), etc.
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This.

If it doesn't work out I hope they don't come to my [more] fiscally responsible state for money.
 
#36
#36
VOLatile said:
The ability to sue anyone for anything here is ridiculous.
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I understand people who want to blame malpractice insurance for healthcare costs here, but it's kind of like placing all of the blame for WWI on the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. They're not wrong, but they're also not seeing the forest for the trees.
 
#37
#37
I don't see how Vermont won't be overwhelmed with sick deadbeats if this passes. One state alone is going to have a hard time dealing with all the desperate people out there. Especially a tiny state like Vermont.
 
#38
#38
therealUT said:
Thanks for stubbornly refusing to read what I cited from the report. Ignorance is bliss, huh?
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I suppose ignorance is bliss, unless you're paying twice as much for your health care system as everybody else.

And they have better health than you....

In fact, ignorance is the only way to keep that state of affairs going. :hi:

By the way, your argument did not stand against the rigorous review and numerous citations from experts in the field.
 
#39
#39
IPorange said:
I don't see how Vermont won't be overwhelmed with sick deadbeats if this passes. One state alone is going to have a hard time dealing with all the desperate people out there. Especially a tiny state like Vermont.
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I would love to see their projections on migration. I'm sure they thought of it and have some numbers.
 
#40
#40
utgibbs said:
Very brave, very sensible of Vermont. I will have to learn more about what they have done. Others may well quickly fall in line when they see the savings. Of course, they will have powerful inter-state forces aligned against them. Can little Vermont do it on their own?

A new domino theory? Will other states follow suit? Will the inter-state, extra-parliamentary forces of Bill Frist et al. foment reactionary reaction?

And how will they handle the migration to the state? That will be interesting as well.
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my wife's sister lives there and she says the taxes are out of control and the cost of living is really expensive. this should help lower the costs though.
 
#41
#41
utgibbs said:
And it is positively ridiculous to go down the "stratification" angle. Access to care is probably THE most important metric in any health care system.

Why? Because you said so?

The US system does well with responsiveness; that's its one success. But in every other metric it lags far, far behind the single-payer models.

On outcomes, satisfaction, and other quality of care delivered metrics the U.S. is routinely at or near the top of the heap. The "equitable access" metric is the one that pulls the overall ratings down.

And it is easy to understand why: there is no incentive for efficiency in a private system. This is borne out in the data as well. Thanks to Swiss and Munich Re, the Swiss and German systems are highly private. And they are #2 and #3 in per capita expenditure for health care (although far lower than us).
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You've yet to explain the "incentive for efficiency" in a single payer system. I know, I know. You believe it is the citizen but why then doesn't that apply to overall government spending. Are you arguing that our Fed govt. is currently efficient at using resources as a result of tax payers?
 
#42
#42
For anyone willing to read it, this explains the WHO methodology and explains the weighting of the criteria along with exploring other aspects of the methodology.

The overall conclusion is pretty clear. On quality of care alone, the U.S. does well. When you throw in "equitable access to care" variables and spending, our ranking goes down.

Of particular value in this piece is pulling apart the OA vs OP index and showing why the OP index basically double counts the "spending" aspect.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf
 
#43
#43
IPorange said:
This is the standard sort of response around here when something doesn't agree with one's opinion.
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Have you read the methodology? It's a garbage analysis steeped heavily in socialist philosophy. That has been the point from the beginning. WHO isn't the least bit concerned with quality of care as it pertains to quality of life. They're trying to find a supporting positio for social medicine rather than private market delivery. To pretend that they have no axe to grind is absurd.
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#44
#44
BigPapaVol said:
Have you read the methodology? It's a garbage analysis steeped heavily in socialist philosophy. That has been the point from the beginning. WHO isn't the least bit concerned with quality of care as it pertains to quality of life. They're trying to find a supporting positio for social medicine rather than private market delivery. To pretend that they have no axe to grind is absurd.
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This is nothing new in World Rankings. I also find it ironic that according to the PISA Education Rankings, China and Singapore are both rated in the Top 5 for the category "Overall Reading Scale"; yet, according to the UN Development Programme, they rank 76th and 81st, respectively, out of 178 countries in literacy rate.
 
#45
#45
volinbham said:
For anyone willing to read it, this explains the WHO methodology and explains the weighting of the criteria along with exploring other aspects of the methodology.

The overall conclusion is pretty clear. On quality of care alone, the U.S. does well. When you throw in "equitable access to care" variables and spending, our ranking goes down.

Of particular value in this piece is pulling apart the OA vs OP index and showing why the OP index basically double counts the "spending" aspect.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf
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Agree to an extent, but what good is a quality healthcare system when tens of millions of people don't have access to it? I know and realize that births amongst illegal immigrants drive our statistics down, which I highly disagree with, but it's still pretty bleak.

The whole healthcare situation in this country is pretty bleak in that respect, and you've got the cost of the system as a result of HMO's, insurance companies, lawyers and care to illegals doing their share to drive up prices.

Personally, I've already got what I suspect are some precursors to heart issues. I've been having moderate to severe chest pains during certain situations. That combined with the fact that nearly everyone on both sides of my family has had a heart attack at some point past age 60, I feel there is a pretty darn high percentage I will have one at some point too.

I'm still under 24 so my dad still has me on his HMO plan (Blue Cross Blue Shield), and I went to get this checked out. They took an EKG and didn't see anything unusual, and gave me a prescription for some Prilosec-type medication. It didn't work, so I went back where they told me they have no idea... And that was the end of it. I contacted BCBS and they weren't willing to give me any further treatment.

So with that happening, going back to the family heart history, if/when I do have a heart attack (and I do take very, very good care of my diet and exercise regularly), I fear this pointless exercise BCBS has taken me through is going to **** me out of coverage for the care I will need.

I've been pretty sure for the last year or so that in ten years time, maybe even five, I very seriously doubt I will be living in the US.
 
#47
#47
milohimself said:
Agree to an extent, but what good is a quality healthcare system when tens of millions of people don't have access to it? I know and realize that births amongst illegal immigrants drive our statistics down, which I highly disagree with, but it's still pretty bleak.

The whole healthcare situation in this country is pretty bleak in that respect, and you've got the cost of the system as a result of HMO's, insurance companies, lawyers and care to illegals doing their share to drive up prices.

Personally, I've already got what I suspect are some precursors to heart issues. I've been having moderate to severe chest pains during certain situations. That combined with the fact that nearly everyone on both sides of my family has had a heart attack at some point past age 60, I feel there is a pretty darn high percentage I will have one at some point too.

I'm still under 24 so my dad still has me on his HMO plan (Blue Cross Blue Shield), and I went to get this checked out. They took an EKG and didn't see anything unusual, and gave me a prescription for some Prilosec-type medication. It didn't work, so I went back where they told me they have no idea... And that was the end of it. I contacted BCBS and they weren't willing to give me any further treatment.

So with that happening, going back to the family heart history, if/when I do have a heart attack (and I do take very, very good care of my diet and exercise regularly), I fear this pointless exercise BCBS has taken me through is going to **** me out of coverage for the care I will need.

I've been pretty sure for the last year or so that in ten years time, maybe even five, I very seriously doubt I will be living in the US.
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I'm not saying our HC system is the best or doesn't need serious reform.

I am reacting to the claim that the care is somehow deficient. It is not.

Those who claim that the care that is delivered is sub par are misrepresenting the WHO data.

Do we have uninsured? Yes. Do we pay a lot for HC? Yes. Is the care sub par relative to other industrialized countries? Not in the least.
 
#49
#49
droski said:
you could get a job with health insurance?
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I have aspirations of starting my own business practice. A very good friend of mine and I are set to graduate within a term of eachother, he as a nutritionist, myself as a personal trainer.
 
#50
#50
milohimself said:
I have aspirations of starting my own business practice. A very good friend of mine and I are set to graduate within a term of eachother, he as a nutritionist, myself as a personal trainer.
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so you are making a personal decision to not get a job taht provides health insurance. not sure how this is a problem with the system.
 
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