Vols Defense: What's Coming

#1

WoodsmanVol

It takes wisdom to understand wisdom.
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#1
If not 2023, 2024, should be the year we return as a more traditional Vols defense. I think we will shortly again become the Orange Ogre, defensively speaking. CJH and company seem to be putting it together. I guess he wanted to first make us an exciting offensive team to watch, then carefully build a defense to go with that. I say this because though I don't know anything more than anyone else here, it just seems that way. He gives me the feeling he's not just an offensive guru, but a team-building tactician. And geared to sneaking up on the toxic red algae and slobbering mutts teams, to hammer them on the head consistently. OK, that said, here's his most recent strategy. Git 'er dun, Joshie.
Source: https://www.si.com/college/tennessee/recruiting/tennessee-coaching-additions-help-williams-nwaneri
 
#2
#2
I think you’ll see a much improved defense in 2023. How improved depends on how much the secondary grows. If the freshmen newcomers are mature and can jump in early, along with Jeudy-Lally’s impact, the defense could make a big jump. We should also see some development for returnees who were injured last offseason and couldn’t develop.
 
#3
#3
If anyone wants to save themselves from reading this article:

We are hiring football coaches and recruiting football players. That’s it

The article starts out promisingly by saying we’ve made changes to our defensive front. Which makes you think, “maybe they’ll discuss different fronts we’ve been playing and break down some x’s and o’s”.

And then nothing
 
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#4
#4
If anyone wants to save themselves from reading this article:
We are hiring football coaches and recruiting football players. That’s it
The article starts out promisingly by saying we’ve made changes to our defensive front. Which makes you think, “maybe they’ll discuss different fronts we’ve been playing and break down some x’s and o’s”.
And then nothing

Welcome to the off season! Welcome, welcome. We feetball fans take what we can get, where we can get it, and when we can get it. Writers know this and, yeah, knowing our desperation, they junk news us and know it. Welcome just the same. Soon, it will be feetball season in Tennessee again.
iu
 
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#6
#6
If not 2023, 2024, should be the year we return as a more traditional Vols defense. I think we will shortly again become the Orange Ogre, defensively speaking. CJH and company seem to be putting it together. I guess he wanted to first make us an exciting offensive team to watch, then carefully build a defense to go with that. I say this because though I don't know anything more than anyone else here, it just seems that way. He gives me the feeling he's not just an offensive guru, but a team-building tactician. And geared to sneaking up on the toxic red algae and slobbering mutts teams, to hammer them on the head consistently. OK, that said, here's his most recent strategy. Git 'er dun, Joshie.
Source: https://www.si.com/college/tennessee/recruiting/tennessee-coaching-additions-help-williams-nwaneri
They weren't just exciting to watch. Even with a bad D, the O propelled the Vols to 11 wins. He and the offensive staff have done more with less. The D staff... has not. Excuse it any way you like but coaching and development on the D side has not held up its end.

They're definitely getting more talented. Banks is getting a chance to "slow build" the D. But there is still a risk that he's just not the right guy and the D will remain a sore spot until a DC is brought in who more closely matches Heupel as an O coach.
 
#8
#8
They weren't just exciting to watch. Even with a bad D, the O propelled the Vols to 11 wins. He and the offensive staff have done more with less. The D staff... has not. Excuse it any way you like but coaching and development on the D side has not held up its end.

They're definitely getting more talented. Banks is getting a chance to "slow build" the D. But there is still a risk that he's just not the right guy and the D will remain a sore spot until a DC is brought in who more closely matches Heupel as an O coach.

Our offensive vs defensive talent disparity is huge. We had less DB talent than any SEC team not named Vandy, yet we fielded a middle of the pack defense. I don't believe our D had a single five star, unlike our offense that had multiple. I agree the offense maximized their talent, but I think the defense did too. I think you're overrating the amount of talent that was on our defense.

Beasley, Garland, Bumphus, Young, Slaughter, Mcdonald, Walker, Terry are all 3* players who our staff got great production from.
 
#9
#9
I think everything but the secondary developed fairly well last year, especially the LBs.

Banks a developed into a decent LB and was sorely missed when not on the field, especially in the pass rush. They will miss him in the middle, but not in the locker room. Beasley turned into a monster. His performance in the Orange Bowl was lights out. He had several games this year where he was a tackle machine. Both converted to lbs from different positions. We saw Josephs flash as did Elijah Herring. I am excited to see what all the newcomers can do and what the 2nd year in S&C for Herring will bring. He def looks the part of a true SEC linebacker. There should be a lot more depth this season, and more opportunities to get our TFL numbers back up to '21 numbers, since that is what Banks D system is based on.

The DL played pretty well except for the lack of a 4 man pass rush. That is something that needs to vastly improve. Run D was really good, especially for how long they were on the field sometimes. If they can work on their pass rush, and continue to play consistent against the run, it will help the weakest link so much.

The secondary was really the only exception. It was an ENORMOUS exception and one very big reason they missed the playoffs. This is where this team needs to take the biggest step. There has been a nice influx of talent, so there should be plenty of competition. I'm excited to see if Jordan Thomas can take some snaps at S, and maybe we get to see Donieko play his preferred position. He looked good at times at CB and is very physical and quick to the ball. He also gets his head around and stabs at the ball, something this entire unit needs to learn imo.

I bet big money the secondary at the top of the list this spring for focusing on improvement.
 
#12
#12
I think everything but the secondary developed fairly well last year, especially the LBs.

Banks a developed into a decent LB and was sorely missed when not on the field, especially in the pass rush. They will miss him in the middle, but not in the locker room. Beasley turned into a monster. His performance in the Orange Bowl was lights out. He had several games this year where he was a tackle machine. Both converted to lbs from different positions. We saw Josephs flash as did Elijah Herring. I am excited to see what all the newcomers can do and what the 2nd year in S&C for Herring will bring. He def looks the part of a true SEC linebacker. There should be a lot more depth this season, and more opportunities to get our TFL numbers back up to '21 numbers, since that is what Banks D system is based on.

The DL played pretty well except for the lack of a 4 man pass rush. That is something that needs to vastly improve. Run D was really good, especially for how long they were on the field sometimes. If they can work on their pass rush, and continue to play consistent against the run, it will help the weakest link so much.

The secondary was really the only exception. It was an ENORMOUS exception and one very big reason they missed the playoffs. This is where this team needs to take the biggest step. There has been a nice influx of talent, so there should be plenty of competition. I'm excited to see if Jordan Thomas can take some snaps at S, and maybe we get to see Donieko play his preferred position. He looked good at times at CB and is very physical and quick to the ball. He also gets his head around and stabs at the ball, something this entire unit needs to learn imo.

I bet big money the secondary at the top of the list this spring for focusing on improvement.

I thought Banks was a liability but I do agree with you about pass rush. As a rusher and as a spy, he was really good.
 
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#13
#13
Our offensive vs defensive talent disparity is huge. We had less DB talent than any SEC team not named Vandy, yet we fielded a middle of the pack defense. I don't believe our D had a single five star, unlike our offense that had multiple. I agree the offense maximized their talent, but I think the defense did too. I think you're overrating the amount of talent that was on our defense.
Beasley, Garland, Bumphus, Young, Slaughter, Mcdonald, Walker, Terry are all 3* players who our staff got great production from.

Good to see someone else also understood what Banks had to work with. We went up against large experienced WrR, and quality QBs, some who were practically elite scramblers, who could throw well on the run. It was like having 11th graders playing against college teams loaded with seniors.
 
#14
#14
Good to see someone else also understood what Banks had to work with. We went up against large experienced WrR, and quality QBs, some who were practically elite scramblers, who could throw well on the run. It was like having 11th graders playing against college teams loaded with seniors.

The Bama game was the best example of that. We had pressure all night and lived in their backfield, yet Young’s mobility limited the number of plays we made.
 
#15
#15
Our offensive vs defensive talent disparity is huge.
No. It really isn't. You can make a very strong case that UT over the last two years has had more talent and depth on the DL than the OL. UT has not had elite talent at RB. You could say that UT has had more talent at WR and QB... except that several of those guys were going absolutely nowhere before playing for Heupel. Without Heupel Hooker probably wouldn't have been drafted. Tillman was a good WR but likely not on the NFL radar. It even took Hyatt a year to understand what Heupel expected. V Jones wasn't special at USC. Payton was an afterthought for MSU. They weren't great until Heupel and crew made them great. They coached them up then gave them an opportunity to excel.

We had less DB talent than any SEC team not named Vandy,
I've seen that claim... and the mental gymnastics needed to get there. Typically if an unproven recruit is a 4* on Rivals/On3/247 then they're counted. By that count, Williams, Burrell, Charles, Slaughter, McCollough, Turnage, McDonald, Walker, Turrentine, Miller, and Rucker were all 4* recruits according to one "expert" or another. But of course when someone is trying to "prove a point" or more accurately make an excuse... you only count "stars" the way most convenient. That's 11 out of 15 DBs that were 4*. The other 4 were 3*.... with solid offer lists.

yet we fielded a middle of the pack defense.
You take the "averages" and you have a middle of the pack statistical D. But you have to consider the absolute collapses too. You have to look at USCe. You have to look at UF. You have to look at Purdue last year. The statistics have to be understood in full context.
I don't believe our D had a single five star, unlike our offense that had multiple.
The O had two- Wright and McCoy. Both were widely considered busts before playing for Heupel.

I agree the offense maximized their talent, but I think the defense did too. I think you're overrating the amount of talent that was on our defense.
I do not think the talent on D was even close to ideal... and they still didn't maximize the talent. USCe didn't have elite offensive talent. Neither did Purdue. UF was a mess most of the year on O. You can throw Mizzou in there this year. They weren't a good offensive team nor did they have anything like elite talent.

If it were just teams like Bama that had abused UT's D over the last two years then I'd be on board with you. I'd agree it is just a matter of building up talent and development. But it hasn't necessarily been the teams with elite offensive talent that have had big success vs UT's D.

Beasley, Garland, Bumphus, Young, Slaughter, Mcdonald, Walker, Terry are all 3* players who our staff got great production from.
Bumphus was a 4*. On3 has Young listed in a confusing way as a 4*.

Weren't both of the Garlands walk ons?

Slaughter was a 4* on Rivals with a decent, not great, offer list.


McDonald was a 4* on Rivals with offers from LSU, UK, MSU, Ark, Ole Miss, Cincinnati and others.

Walker was a 3* with offers from UT, ND, LSU, Ole Miss, USCe, UK, and others before signing with GT.

Terry was a pretty known quantity coming in the portal.

FWIW, I think the DL has held up its end for the most part. They've covered for the LBs who struggled with QB runs on broken plays or else I think their pass rush would have been better. IMO, CRG is one of the top DL coaches anywhere... and the results show through even if other groups or the schemes or the play calling is suspect.
 
#17
#17
Good to see someone else also understood what Banks had to work with. We went up against large experienced WrR, and quality QBs, some who were practically elite scramblers, who could throw well on the run. It was like having 11th graders playing against college teams loaded with seniors.
And yet... that's not the problem. The problem is when two of the SEC's worst QBs in terms of INTs and QBR have "Heisman moments" vs your D. Rattler literally has ONE... ONLY ONE 400 yd game in his career. Wanna guess who couldn't stop him even with mediocre or worse WRs? Richardson was downright awful most of the year... except for the 453 he put up against UT.

These aren't elite QBs playing on elite rosters.
 
#18
#18
Just a reminder that Willie Martinez is still on the coaching staff
When did Banks turn schemes and playcalling duties over to Martinez? Banks is the DC. It is his job to make it work and especially with a guy like Martinez who has had success in the SEC in his current job.

I'm not saying Martinez is the right guy. I AM saying that it is almost certainly more than just the DB coach.
 
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#19
#19
And yet... that's not the problem. The problem is when two of the SEC's worst QBs in terms of INTs and QBR have "Heisman moments" vs your D. Rattler literally has ONE... ONLY ONE 400 yd game in his career. Wanna guess who couldn't stop him even with mediocre or worse WRs? Richardson was downright awful most of the year... except for the 453 he put up against UT.
These aren't elite QBs playing on elite rosters.

I'm glad we were no longer the laughingstock of the SEC and CFB in general. I'm glad we shocked the experts who had as 4th placer lower in the SEC preseason. I'm glad I had something to be excited and proud about our team after two decades of having our azzes kicked by every Tom, Dick, and Harry that stepped on the field with us. Ain't nothing, nothing, nothing going to dampen that for me.
 
#20
#20
I'm glad we were no longer the laughingstock of the SEC and CFB in general. I'm glad we shocked the experts who had as 4th placer lower in the SEC preseason. I'm glad I had something to be excited and proud about our team after two decades of having our azzes kicked by every Tom, Dick, and Harry that stepped on the field with us. Ain't nothing, nothing, nothing going to dampen that for me.
Nor me... nor should it. The topic being discussed though isn't pride about past overachievement. The conversation that YOU started is about "what's coming" on D. I understand the attraction of simplistic answers. But it likely isn't a simple problem. UT did not have ideal talent on D. No question about it. But they didn't have ideal talent on O either. They did amazing things on O with what they had and not so much on D.

The other "simple" answer is that it is all Martinez's fault. I just don't buy it. Banks is in charge of the D. If you have a problem with the D then you start your review at the top, right?
 
#21
#21
I've seen that claim... and the mental gymnastics needed to get there. Typically if an unproven recruit is a 4* on Rivals/On3/247 then they're counted. By that count, Williams, Burrell, Charles, Slaughter, McCollough, Turnage, McDonald, Walker, Turrentine, Miller, and Rucker were all 4* recruits according to one "expert" or another. But of course when someone is trying to "prove a point" or more accurately make an excuse... you only count "stars" the way most convenient. That's 11 out of 15 DBs that were 4*. The other 4 were 3*.... with solid offer lists.

I do not think the talent on D was even close to ideal... and they still didn't maximize the talent. USCe didn't have elite offensive talent. Neither did Purdue. UF was a mess most of the year on O. You can throw Mizzou in there this year. They weren't a good offensive team nor did they have anything like elite talent.

Bumphus was a 4*. On3 has Young listed in a confusing way as a 4*.

Weren't both of the Garlands walk ons?

Slaughter was a 4* on Rivals with a decent, not great, offer list.

McDonald was a 4* on Rivals with offers from LSU, UK, MSU, Ark, Ole Miss, Cincinnati and others.

Walker was a 3* with offers from UT, ND, LSU, Ole Miss, USCe, UK, and others before signing with GT.

Terry was a pretty known quantity coming in the portal.

FWIW, I think the DL has held up its end for the most part. They've covered for the LBs who struggled with QB runs on broken plays or else I think their pass rush would have been better. IMO, CRG is one of the top DL coaches anywhere... and the results show through even if other groups or the schemes or the play calling is suspect.

The first problem with your argument is that you're randomly cherry picking whichever service has them as a 4* instead of using the consensus average. Why would you pick "one expert" as opposed to a consensus? It would be like pretending you expected Tom Brady to be good because "one expert said so" or you knew Isaiah Wilson was a bust because of the opinion of "one expert". If you want a fair idea of how talented a roster is you shouldn't cherry pick the guy who said they're the best, but rather take the consensus average. Our secondary lacked talent. If you take consensus ratings we only had more 4/5* DBs than Vandy. It's a simple fact. If you think I'm wrong, find me the SEC team with less DB talent. There wasn't another team with less talent in the secondary last season.

The other thing you're ignoring is positional value. DB is the most valuable position on defense, specifically corner. We had 1 4* corner (Turnage) on our entire roster last season. That's horrific.

Bumphus was a composite 3* LaTrell Bumphus, Tennessee, Defensive Line

One Garland was a walk on (the LB).

Slaughter was a composite 3*

McDonald was a composite 3*

Terry was very low ranked as a recruit but had more value in the portal because he went to a really, really bad team and got immediate playing time.

Looking at offers is a flawed metric because you have no way of knowing how many of those are committable. Every school in the country offers far more than 25 guys every year.
 
#22
#22
I'll keep saying this: To expect the defense in. year two to be way ahead of schedule just because the offense was successful beyond anyone's wildest dreams is silly. The offense was something special in the second season by some kind of genius at work. The odds of having both sides of the ball converted to national championship playoff caliber in year two is so remote as to be impossible. That said, I still would have expected the secondary to have been better than it was in the second season. However, the overall defense was improved considerably over 21, and I am confident that it will improve again in 23, including the secondary. I for one have no axe to grind whatsoever when it comes to the defensive performance in 22.
 
#24
#24
Our offensive vs defensive talent disparity is huge. We had less DB talent than any SEC team not named Vandy, yet we fielded a middle of the pack defense. I don't believe our D had a single five star, unlike our offense that had multiple. I agree the offense maximized their talent, but I think the defense did too. I think you're overrating the amount of talent that was on our defense.

Beasley, Garland, Bumphus, Young, Slaughter, Mcdonald, Walker, Terry are all 3* players who our staff got great production from.

Coaching up. It's real.
 
#25
#25
The first problem with your argument is that you're randomly cherry picking whichever service has them as a 4* instead of using the consensus average. Why would you pick "one expert" as opposed to a consensus? It would be like pretending you expected Tom Brady to be good because "one expert said so" or you knew Isaiah Wilson was a bust because of the opinion of "one expert". If you want a fair idea of how talented a roster is you shouldn't cherry pick the guy who said they're the best, but rather take the consensus average. Our secondary lacked talent. If you take consensus ratings we only had more 4/5* DBs than Vandy. It's a simple fact. If you think I'm wrong, find me the SEC team with less DB talent. There wasn't another team with less talent in the secondary last season.

The other thing you're ignoring is positional value. DB is the most valuable position on defense, specifically corner. We had 1 4* corner (Turnage) on our entire roster last season. That's horrific.

Bumphus was a composite 3* LaTrell Bumphus, Tennessee, Defensive Line

One Garland was a walk on (the LB).

Slaughter was a composite 3*

McDonald was a composite 3*

Terry was very low ranked as a recruit but had more value in the portal because he went to a really, really bad team and got immediate playing time.

Looking at offers is a flawed metric because you have no way of knowing how many of those are committable. Every school in the country offers far more than 25 guys every year.
You hit the nail on the head. I never have cared much for Martinez coaching but lack of talent at DB was the major problem. They simply had to get better players back there and I think they’ve taken the first steps to do that. We shall see. It certainly couldn’t get any worse.
 

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