Vols Defense: What's Coming

[sjt18]

Overrated based on current production? Sure.

He's about to be a 5th year player.

But that still doesn’t address the overall issue. You tried to pretend a guy who threw for 360 against Clemson and a guy who’s going in the first round were trash.

No. I'm not "pretending" anything. You are. UT was an anomaly for both players. Rattler played a "good" game vs Clemson. He threw for 360 with a QBR of 148 which is 10 points above his season average. He threw 2 TDs vs 2 INTs. Against UT he threw 6 TDs vs no INTs and had a QBR of 234... about 75 points higher than any other game of the year. That one game skewed his overall ranking "up" to 9th.

Richardson played like trash against everyone with a pulse... except UT. So what does the possibility that an NFL team will take a shot based on his athleticism have to do with that fact?

The second issue is you refuse to accept the two basic facts that CB is the most important position on defense in todays game and that we had almost no talent at DB.

Well, yes. I refuse to accept that CB and not DT or LB or some other position is the most important position on your say so. I doubt very seriously there's a consensus on that.

Especially at CB.

No talent? I think you insinuated that I had engaged in hyperbole before? But again, you are using arguments of convenience. Two things. One, other programs liked some of the guys who UT played at DB and specifically at CB. Two, I have never said that UT had ideal talent on D.

Where your argument really breaks down is that it wasn't teams with elite QBs and WRs that trashed UTs D or secondary. It wasn't a matter of talent. Want to use composite rankings to see that? USCe had only 3 4* WRs on their roster. One had 13 yds vs UT. Vann is the other and had around 70 yds vs UT. The other had no catches on the season.

Antwane Wells who had 177 yds vs UT was a 0 star. Their 3rd most yds vs UT was by another 0 star. If you are going to use "stars" to prove UT had no talent in the secondary then you need to explain why USCe's WR group that had far less ran over them.

When you have Vandy level DBs and still are ranked around 40th in ppg and have given up less points than the previous year in back to back years with that level of talent, despite playing far more snaps per game than under the previous staff, it’s hard to claim the defense has underachieved

And you are probably convinced that you've made a good case for UT having "Vandy level DBs" with no consideration for how they performed against particular competition. I mean if they truly had "no talent" as you claim then they shouldn't have done as well vs Bryce Young as they did. His QBR was 10 points under his season average. Bama had him throw a season high 55 passes trying to keep up with Hooker and the O. UT's DBs dominated Levis. They weren't great vs Daniel but did hold him to a 130 QBR vs his average of 146

I don't really know how good the kid at Clemson is. But they had a month to prepare a former 5* and UT's secondary held up pretty well. Two picks. No TDs. 94 QBR. 54% completions. How could guys with "no talent" do that?

They played well enough times that you cannot reasonably say they had "no talent" or "Vandy level" talent.

 

[Vol8188]

He's about to be a 5th year player.

No. I'm not "pretending" anything. You are. UT was an anomaly for both players. Rattler played a "good" game vs Clemson. He threw for 360 with a QBR of 148 which is 10 points above his season average. He threw 2 TDs vs 2 INTs. Against UT he threw 6 TDs vs no INTs and had a QBR of 234... about 75 points higher than any other game of the year. That one game skewed his overall ranking "up" to 9th.

Richardson played like trash against everyone with a pulse... except UT. So what does the possibility that an NFL team will take a shot based on his athleticism have to do with that fact?

Well, yes. I refuse to accept that CB and not DT or LB or some other position is the most important position on your say so. I doubt very seriously there's a consensus on that.

No talent? I think you insinuated that I had engaged in hyperbole before? But again, you are using arguments of convenience. Two things. One, other programs liked some of the guys who UT played at DB and specifically at CB. Two, I have never said that UT had ideal talent on D.

Where your argument really breaks down is that it wasn't teams with elite QBs and WRs that trashed UTs D or secondary. It wasn't a matter of talent. Want to use composite rankings to see that? USCe had only 3 4* WRs on their roster. One had 13 yds vs UT. Vann is the other and had around 70 yds vs UT. The other had no catches on the season.

Antwane Wells who had 177 yds vs UT was a 0 star. Their 3rd most yds vs UT was by another 0 star. If you are going to use "stars" to prove UT had no talent in the secondary then you need to explain why USCe's WR group that had far less ran over them.


And you are probably convinced that you've made a good case for UT having "Vandy level DBs" with no consideration for how they performed against particular competition. I mean if they truly had "no talent" as you claim then they shouldn't have done as well vs Bryce Young as they did. His QBR was 10 points under his season average. Bama had him throw a season high 55 passes trying to keep up with Hooker and the O. UT's DBs dominated Levis. They weren't great vs Daniel but did hold him to a 130 QBR vs his average of 146

I don't really know how good the kid at Clemson is. But they had a month to prepare a former 5* and UT's secondary held up pretty well. Two picks. No TDs. 94 QBR. 54% completions. How could guys with "no talent" do that?

They played well enough times that you cannot reasonably say they had "no talent" or "Vandy level" talent.

Lmfao saying Lb is the most important spot on defense is like saying RG is the most important spot on offense.

Lol you’re trying to have it both ways by claiming our success means we have talent and that our lack of success is on the coaches. We didn’t beat Bama because of our secondary. We beat them in-spite of our secondary

 

[sjt18]

Lmfao saying Lb is the most important spot on defense is like saying RG is the most important spot on offense.

Lol you’re trying to have it both ways by claiming our success means we have talent and that our lack of success is on the coaches. We didn’t beat Bama because of our secondary. We beat them in-spite of our secondary

You are the one who made the definitive claim that CB is the most important position on D. I simply pointed out that it could be another position and that it is very likely that A LOT of people disagree with YOU. And that triggered you.

Well, you have that about as near the opposite as you possibly could. I haven't even said it is solely because of the coaches. I've said the simplistic answers are likely wrong. It isn't simply a matter of talent since that same talent has performed well at times and often against better opponents. I have acknowledged repeatedly that the talent hasn't been ideal. But... I've said that I'm not convinced that Banks is the answer.... and that seems to send you soaring.

You are the one who claimed very specifically that UT had "no talent" in the secondary. You are the one who keeps protesting the very possibility that the problem could be Banks. I think you said that you didn't know if he was the right guy but then every suggestion or reason that he might bear blame... sends you into a rant about the players being untalented. Talk about wanting it both ways...

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

DL should be great. LB should be great as long as our depth holds out. I think we are ok at Safety too. CBs are the concern. If we had two really good ones, we could wreak havoc against just about anyone.

 

[JCVOL]

If not 2023, 2024, should be the year we return as a more traditional Vols defense. I think we will shortly again become the Orange Ogre, defensively speaking. CJH and company seem to be putting it together. I guess he wanted to first make us an exciting offensive team to watch, then carefully build a defense to go with that. I say this because though I don't know anything more than anyone else here, it just seems that way. He gives me the feeling he's not just an offensive guru, but a team-building tactician. And geared to sneaking up on the toxic red algae and slobbering mutts teams, to hammer them on the head consistently. OK, that said, here's his most recent strategy. Git 'er dun, Joshie.
Source: https://www.si.com/college/tennessee/recruiting/tennessee-coaching-additions-help-williams-nwaneri

This year I believe we finally play with all 85 scholarships allowed. We have been playing with 70 the last several years.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

So confident am I in the 2023 team, I want to see:

1. Offense come out of the tunnel first to the strands of "Bad to the Bone."
2. Then the defense comes out after to the strands of "Jim Dandy to the Rescue."

I don't think any other team has separate intros for the offense and defense. Would love to see the UT do this as a trendsetter.
Just think of the publicity, being the most talked about program nationwide, and seeing copycats trying to be the UT. As if...

Another dream I have is for the first song above played as our entire team comes out in O/W prison stripe style uniforms.

CJH, make the Vols epic, not just in game wins, but one or two incomparable introductions. Combined, we would surely become a team everybody insists has to be watched. Break every viewership rating there ever was, maybe even there ever will be.

I dare say, if we reach the NCS, the bowl sponsors would beg us to repeat these introductions, to send NCS rating all the way to the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, home of the alien species, Lupus Woofs. Who would howl in awe at the greatest show on any field. Then top it off by Rockytopping the stadium. What about the opponent's band? They'd probably hang their heads and refuse to play after our performance.

Don't look at me that way. It's not my fault I had four frozen cubes of Ole No. 7 for breakfast, with 14oz of Davidson Reserve Rye as a coffee substitute. My dog recommended it.

 

[Mccage]

You hit the nail on the head. I never have cared much for Martinez coaching but lack of talent at DB was the major problem. They simply had to get better players back there and I think they’ve taken the first steps to do that. We shall see. It certainly couldn’t get any worse.

They need to get guys who can get their head turned around in coverage.

 

[UTblood4life]

Practice time is almost here, time for Fingers

 

[KnoxToTheBoro93]

Nor me... nor should it. The topic being discussed though isn't pride about past overachievement. The conversation that YOU started is about "what's coming" on D. I understand the attraction of simplistic answers. But it likely isn't a simple problem. UT did not have ideal talent on D. No question about it. But they didn't have ideal talent on O either. They did amazing things on O with what they had and not so much on D.

The other "simple" answer is that it is all Martinez's fault. I just don't buy it. Banks is in charge of the D. If you have a problem with the D then you start your review at the top, right?

I enjoy your posts and agree with you often but we differ a little on banks I think the D made really good strides and year 2 at a more normal rate… heup is a one of a kind coach and what he did on offense was amazing but should not be held against the defense I think the defense will continue to improve as will banks… I think the Clemson game showed him the type of strategy that will be more successful and as he continues to add more talent and his players I feel they will continue to make strides offense was wayyy ahead of schedule I think the defense is on track and I think heup sees that as well and it’s why he made no changes… however if the defense doesn’t make the jump it should in year 3 then I think changes will be made but If it makes the same jump it made from year 1 to 2 and offense stays close to the same when have a really good shot to be in Atlanta…

 

[sjt18]

I enjoy your posts and agree with you often but we differ a little on banks I think the D made really good strides and year 2 at a more normal rate… heup is a one of a kind coach and what he did on offense was amazing but should not be held against the defense I think the defense will continue to improve as will banks… I think the Clemson game showed him the type of strategy that will be more successful and as he continues to add more talent and his players I feel they will continue to make strides offense was wayyy ahead of schedule I think the defense is on track and I think heup sees that as well and it’s why he made no changes… however if the defense doesn’t make the jump it should in year 3 then I think changes will be made but If it makes the same jump it made from year 1 to 2 and offense stays close to the same when have a really good shot to be in Atlanta…

I don't want to write him off. I don't think talent has been ideal. The DBs have not performed and some of that may fall on Martinez. I was not excited when Martinez was brought back to start with since his first stint wasn't great. I have no personal stake in him at all.

All that said, it is just way too simplistic and honestly unrealistic to lay all the blame on the players' talent and Martinez. There were times when it just seemed Banks was completely clueless against opposing OCs. My question is will improving talent then possibly replacing Martinez really "fix" problems that at times seem to go to the top.

I would like to see him be great. I'm just not an easy sale after the last 18 years.

 

[KnoxToTheBoro93]

I don't want to write him off. I don't think talent has been ideal. The DBs have not performed and some of that may fall on Martinez. I was not excited when Martinez was brought back to start with since his first stint wasn't great. I have no personal stake in him at all.

All that said, it is just way too simplistic and honestly unrealistic to lay all the blame on the players' talent and Martinez. There were times when it just seemed Banks was completely clueless against opposing OCs. My question is will improving talent then possibly replacing Martinez really "fix" problems that at times seem to go to the top.

I would like to see him be great. I'm just not an easy sale after the last 18 years.

That’s understandable and fair for sure and year 3 everybody should be much more familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the defense and how to improve scheme… I feel we will mirror the offense more so with aggressive blitzing alot more often and it could lead to a few more big plays given up but I think it will result in more stops and turnovers and overall better defensive play… I just love the culture heup has built and is continuing to build and if the players continue to buy in then improvement seems inevitable. It’s alot of competition in the back end with returning players and new additions.

 

[bpalmer28]

I don't want to write him off. I don't think talent has been ideal. The DBs have not performed and some of that may fall on Martinez. I was not excited when Martinez was brought back to start with since his first stint wasn't great. I have no personal stake in him at all.

All that said, it is just way too simplistic and honestly unrealistic to lay all the blame on the players' talent and Martinez. There were times when it just seemed Banks was completely clueless against opposing OCs. My question is will improving talent then possibly replacing Martinez really "fix" problems that at times seem to go to the top.

I would like to see him be great. I'm just not an easy sale after the last 18 years.

Everyone loves to point fingers at Martinez for our woes in the secondary, but nobody talks about the role he played in helping Alontae Taylor and Theo Jackson take the next step. Nobody had Theo going to the NFL after the 2020 season and there weren't many who thought Alontae would go in the 2nd round.