War in Ukraine

#86,302
#86,302
NorthDallas40 said:
You completely misrepresented what happened in Crimea and completely left out the Donbas invasion by a Russian brigade posing as Ukrainian insurgents. The receipts are in your own posts. And I’ve made no comment at all on nukes in this exchange you are inserting that narrative and trying to attach that stance to me. Never happened.
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Were you not the one discussing the nuclear option with Mac? Let me go back and read again. If not, I'll be here to apologize.
 
#86,304
#86,304
I know we have talked about NBC and the NYT as propaganda rags, but look at the stark raving innumeracy of this NYT opinion writer and the documented pathological liar and con-artist anchor Brian Williams.

www.independent.co.uk

TV host says Bloomberg could have used campaign's $500m to give $1m to each of 327m people in US

Anchor Brian Williams suggested that the cost of Bloomberg's campaign amounted to one million dollars for every person in America
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

The NYT let this opinion writer go today due to budget cuts because they have lost all credibility. William has been booted from place to place for years but always makes a comeback somehow. NBC hired him back after previously documented that he lied continually for decades. I think Amazon hired him for their election coverage this year. idk.
 
#86,305
#86,305
NorthDallas40 said:
Pretty sure I wasn’t. If it turns out I was I’ll also own it.
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Nope. I'll own it. It was Louder. I sincerely apologize.

The entirety of my posts here have been arguing against further escalation due to the idea of Ukraine as a nuclear power to tame Russian aggression. My entire point is that that most likely won't happen. At the very least, it may likey turn Ukraine to glass before they can get it. At worst, it spills nukes into a wider theater.

Russia has turned up the heat every time NATO has even been offered as an option there. Much less if nukes are planted minutes from them.

I apologize for assuming your responses were from that context/poster.
 
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#86,306
#86,306
Orange_Crush said:
Nope. I'll own it. It was Louder. I sincerely apologize.

The entirety of my posts here have been arguing against further escalation due to the idea of making Ukraine a nuclear power to tame Russian aggression. My entire point is that that most likely won't happen. At the very least, it may likey turn Ukraine to glass before they can get it. At worst, it spills nukes into a wider theater.

Russia has turned up the heat every time NATO has even been offered as an option there. Much less if nukes are planted minutes from them.

I apologize for assuming your responses were from that context/poster.
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All good OC thank you and no apology is required.

Now for my own stance that I’ll state I don’t want to see further escalation either but I’d submit that’s exactly what Russia has done as a response to any cease fire talks.

Russia is a thug nation and deserves no seat at the table in a civilized exchange of peers. They should be ostracized and isolated with only trading with their actual peers. The likes of China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc. They should be removed from the UN Security Council today it’s long overdue in fact.

Russia will most likely keep a very large chunk of Ukraine. They will expend all means available to them to keep Crimea. But it will probably happen. The cost of that action SHOULD be economic exile from all western markets and trade.
 
#86,307
#86,307
NorthDallas40 said:
All good OC thank you and no apology is required.

Now for my own stance that I’ll state I don’t want to see further escalation either but I’d submit that’s exactly what Russia has done as a response to any cease fire talks.

Russia is a thug nation and deserves no seat at the table in a civilized exchange of peers. They should be ostracized and isolated with only trading with their actual peers. The likes of China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc. They should be removed from the UN Security Council today it’s long overdue in fact.

Russia will most likely keep a very large chunk of Ukraine. They will expend all means available to them to keep Crimea. But it will probably happen. The cost of that action SHOULD be economic exile from all western markets and trade.
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Now that the misunderstanding is out of the way--again, at my fault. I may be able to clear some things up.

I'm not Russia-fan. I'm being pragmatic. Potential deep-state, black-ops, regime change, etc aside... Russia had a pretty amiable neighbor in Ukraine. They were pretty chill. Regime change, for whatever reason. The west started talking NATO. Russia said. Don't do it. The more they talked, offered and promised NATO in Ukraine, the more Russia escalated. The more we escalated, the more they tripled down.

That is why I believe Trump will not give security guarantees. That's why I don't believe pouring more arms into Ukraine will help. All it's EVER done is escalate, and there is NO indication that it will de-escalate this time.

That's why I believe that Ukraine's only option for survival is peace negotiations with the leverage of the mineral deal that makes the US a non-military stakeholder in the region, and promises of no NATO in Ukraine. It won't escalate unless Russia does something stupid to actually draw the US into it militarily.

It's not anti-Ukraine, or anti-US. It's not pro-Russian. It's pragmatic. It's the best shot at de-escalation and peace.
 
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#86,311
#86,311
Orange_Crush said:
Now that the misunderstanding is out of the way--again, at my fault. I may be able to clear some things up.

I'm not Russia-fan. I'm being pragmatic. Potential deep-state, black-ops, regime change, etc aside... Russia had a pretty amiable neighbor in Ukraine. They were pretty chill. Regime change, for whatever reason. The west started talking NATO. Russia said. Don't do it. The more they talked, offered and promised NATO in Ukraine, the more Russia escalated. The more we escalated, the more they tripled down.

That is why I believe Trump will not give security guarantees. That's why I don't believe pouring more arms into Ukraine will help. All it's EVER done is escalate, and there is NO indication that it will de-escalate this time.

That's why I believe that Ukraine's only option for survival is peace negotiations with the leverage of the mineral deal that makes the US a non-military stakeholder in the region, and promises of no NATO in Ukraine. It won't escalate unless Russia does something stupid to actually draw the US into it militarily.

It's not anti-Ukraine, or anti-US. It's not pro-Russian. It's pragmatic. It's the best shot at de-escalation and peace.
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I don’t want to see us providing “security guarantees” on anything going forward either. This is an EU problem. Russia is in their back yard. I have no problem with us arming the EU to the teeth after all they have money to buy all the arms they want. I do feel we have some obligations ( I did not say guarantees) in the current fiasco due to our meddling in 1994. But we absolutely shouldn’t be doing that going forward.

Mutually beneficial economic agreements and pacts? Sure. All day long even.
 
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#86,312
#86,312
NorthDallas40 said:
I don’t want to see us providing “security guarantees” on anything going forward either. This is an EU problem. Russia is in their back yard. I have no problem with us arming the EU to the teeth after all they have money to buy all the arms they want. I do feel we have some obligations ( I did not say guarantees) in the current fiasco due to our meddling in 1994. But we absolutely shouldn’t be doing that going forward.

Mutually beneficial economic agreements and pacts? Sure. All day long even.
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Agreed
 
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#86,315
#86,315
hog88 said:
Only idiots believe the propaganda about Ukraine joining NATO is the reason Russia invaded.
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My companies previous CEO went out with a bang. His last company conference, where he retired as CEO and became Chairman, he had it out in Vegas. We booked over 2,000 rooms. Several major brands that we own under one roof. He bragged it would be a thing to remember. Blue Man group opened our conference. Followed immediately by our old CEO leading a Q&A with GW. This was 3 years ago. When our CEO asked about Putin, GW said that Putin was open to former Russian Territories staying independent, except Ukraine. He said Putin kept saying " But George that isn't a country." Obvi Russia hasn't been open to all the former territories being free. This has just always stuck with me since this war. Putin believes Ukraine, over all other former Russian lands, part of Russia
 
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#86,316
#86,316
volfanhill said:
My companies previous CEO went out with a bang. His last company conference, where he retired as CEO and became Chairman, he had it out in Vegas. We booked over 2,000 rooms. Several major brands that we own under one roof. He bragged it would be a thing to remember. Blue Man group opened our conference. Followed immediately by our old CEO leading a Q&A with GW. This was 3 years ago. When our CEO asked about Putin, GW said that Putin was open to former Russian Territories staying independent, except Ukraine. He said Putin kept saying " But George that isn't a country." Obvi Russia hasn't been open to all the former territories being free. This has just always stuck with me since this war. Putin believes Ukraine, over all other former Russian lands, part of Russia
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who is GW to us noobz? Bush?
 
#86,320
#86,320
Orange. said:
Seriously, Beard, are you claiming that the CIA and American intelligence deliberately fed the VP with false information on Ukraine? Because Zelensky was using his non sequitur to reject Vance’s figures as false.
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Look y'all, suddenly the CIA and "American intelligence" is back to being a trusted source by the Trumpers again. Praise be.
 
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#86,324
#86,324
hog88 said:
Only idiots believe the propaganda about Ukraine joining NATO is the reason Russia invaded.
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You've changed you position, idiotically.

You said "The possibility of Ukraine joining NATO had nothing [in any way] to do with Russia invading. Absolutely nothing.

You must have realized you were wrong. But you didn't escape notice moving the goalpost to: "Ukraine joining NATO is the [sole] reason Russia invaded." Vastly different.

Then you go further in your sleight of hand and preface your altered claim with the phrase "the propaganda about." Even or especially if that were the sole reason [singular], the "propaganda about" it wouldn't be the reason.

You do this sht all the time.
 
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