War in Ukraine

#86,801
#86,801
LSU-SIU said:
NATO had not expanded in 1991, half the countries weren't even in NATO. I would say the last 30 years has proven otherwise, the West and NATO did have to go to mission creep and use the pawn scam otherwise tactical nuke time. Time is up on Europe and NATO... I would say things have been boring until now.

You know who NATO needs to worry about? NATO.

The ones that move quickly might be able to survive.
Vucic says Serbia, Hungary are moving towards military alliance
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1997 NATO Founding Act, signed by Russia, most pertinent parts highlighted for your convenience.

1743683989647.png
 
#86,802
#86,802
volbound1700 said:
Not sure where you are getting that data. Biden administration boycott them. I know that my company can't buy from Russia (along with other nations like North Korea).
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Lol, the link is listed in the post
1743684076366.png

Not sure what you are going on about the Biden administration boycotting Russia.
 
#86,804
#86,804
LouderVol said:
exactly. which is why I said Russia is just manufacturing fear. because nothing is going on.
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Which is what NATO is, so what? What is the purpose of NATO? To protect against the big bad Russians, so what? The situation is way beyond that now, and its mostly irrelevant at this stage other than minor context.

None of this worked and Europe is now on deck. Europe needs to get all their newly minted immigrants all uniformed up, but I guess they will have to use sticks and stones at this point. 🤷‍♂️
 
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#86,809
#86,809
LSU-SIU said:
Which is what NATO is, so what? What is the purpose of NATO? To protect against the big bad Russians, so what? The situation is way beyond that now, and its mostly irrelevant at this stage other than minor context.

None of this worked and Europe is now on deck. Europe needs to get all their newly minted immigrants all uniformed up, but I guess they will have to use sticks and stones at this point. 🤷‍♂️
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its worked great.

Russia hasn't been attacked. period. yet alone from the west/nato.
and the west hasn't been attacked by Russia.

what's more is the major western european nations haven't been at war since joining nato, and no real risk of it has even cropped up. compare that to any other 70+ year time period.

nato is a defensive alliance. where anyone who joins receives and reciprocates the promise to come to the aid of the other signees if they are attacked. its been evoked once, the US after 9/11. and nato nations answered the call.
 
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#86,810
#86,810
LouderVol said:
its worked great.

Russia hasn't been attacked. period. yet alone from the west/nato.
and the west hasn't been attacked by Russia.

what's more is the major western european nations haven't been at war since joining nato, and no real risk of it has even cropped up. compare that to any other 70+ year time period.

nato is a defensive alliance. where anyone who joins receives and reciprocates the promise to come to the aid of the other signees if they are attacked. its been evoked once, the US after 9/11. and nato nations answered the call.
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Europe is well on its way to collapse and war, not sure what weapons they will use but that is meaningless detail. They will be using the remaining NATO weapons, on themselves.

nato is a defensive alliance. where anyone who joins receives and reciprocates the promise to come to the aid of the other signees if they are attacked. its been evoked once, the US after 9/11. and nato nations answered the call.
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Is that what the fake weapons of mass destruction were about? BTW all of this is pretty irrelevant at this point.
 
#86,811
#86,811
LSU-SIU said:
Europe is well on its way to collapse and war, not sure what weapons they will use but that is meaningless detail. They will be using the remaining NATO weapons, on themselves.



Is that what the fake weapons of mass destruction were about? BTW all of this is pretty irrelevant at this point.
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I see some major problems brewing for Europe but I don't think it will be what you think. The young male population cannot get ahead now because there aren't any jobs for them. They are leaning more towards radical parties such as Communists and Fascists. Europe is slowing going the 1932 route. Not sure how each nation will breakdown long-term.
 
#86,812
#86,812
volbound1700 said:
I see some major problems brewing for Europe but I don't think it will be what you think. The young male population cannot get ahead now because there aren't any jobs for them. They are leaning more towards radical parties such as Communists and Fascists. Europe is slowing going the 1932 route. Not sure how each nation will breakdown long-term.
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Europe is on deck for war with itself which is why they are in panic mode. They tried to prolong it by collapsing Russia but that has failed it would seem.

Europe is on deck.
 
#86,813
#86,813
LSU-SIU said:
Europe is well on its way to collapse and war, not sure what weapons they will use but that is meaningless detail. They will be using the remaining NATO weapons, on themselves.



Is that what the fake weapons of mass destruction were about? BTW all of this is pretty irrelevant at this point.
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the possibility of collapse has nothing to do with NATO. if NATo magically disappeared 20 years ago, but nothing else changed, Europe would be in the exact same place financially today.

as usual you are just making imaginary connections, NATO=economy, to create something you can claim to be correct about to justify your stances.
 
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#86,814
#86,814
LouderVol said:
the possibility of collapse has nothing to do with NATO. if NATo magically disappeared 20 years ago, but nothing else changed, Europe would be in the exact same place financially today.

as usual you are just making imaginary connections, NATO=economy, to create something you can claim to be correct about to justify your stances.
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I don't understand the Conservative animosity towards NATO. It has kept the peace in Europe for over 80 years. That is what it was designed to do.

I get that some nations could pay more but the USA could always pay less as well if Europe isn't willing to pay more. I am actually a fan of expanding NATO to include nations like Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Israel, Singapore, etc. I guess you would have to rename it at that point.
 
#86,815
#86,815
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#86,817
#86,817
LSU-SIU said:
Europe is on deck for war with itself which is why they are in panic mode. They tried to prolong it by collapsing Russia but that has failed it would seem.

Europe is on deck.
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Best case is that we can broker a deal with both Russia and Ukraine and make peace, as well as economic deals with both countries. Rare minerals from Ukraine and agricultural as well as aluminum deals from Russia. Both will sit out the turmoil in Europe that is coming because neither country will be fully recovered for a while from this bloody, World War I type of conflict.
 
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#86,818
#86,818
norrislakevol said:
Best case is that we can broker a deal with both Russia and Ukraine and make peace, as well as economic deals with both countries. Rare minerals from Ukraine and agricultural as well as aluminum deals from Russia. Both will sit out the turmoil in Europe that is coming because neither country will be fully recovered for a while from this bloody, World War I type of conflict.
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That is a best case but probably not achievable, there is no easy off ramp. As soon as its over, the midget is gone one way or another and Europe will really speed up its collapse. The war has to keep going if the alternative is worse in their eyes. The issue is there is only so far one can kick this can. The European countries that act immediately in theory could be in a much better position... Hungary and Serbia are already teaming up for what comes in the decades to follow.

They're all trying to get the U.S. involved because what else is there? I mean they don't even have a plan to have a plan.
 
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#86,819
#86,819
norrislakevol said:
Best case is that we can broker a deal with both Russia and Ukraine and make peace, as well as economic deals with both countries. Rare minerals from Ukraine and agricultural as well as aluminum deals from Russia. Both will sit out the turmoil in Europe that is coming because neither country will be fully recovered for a while from this bloody, World War I type of conflict.
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I think this was Trump's goal. I think he wants to trade again with Russia (and Ukraine) and also put a wedge between China and Russia.

I don't think Putin is playing ball though...
 
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#86,820
#86,820
volbound1700 said:
I don't understand the Conservative animosity towards NATO. It has kept the peace in Europe for over 80 years. That is what it was designed to do.

I get that some nations could pay more but the USA could always pay less as well if Europe isn't willing to pay more. I am actually a fan of expanding NATO to include nations like Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Israel, Singapore, etc. I guess you would have to rename it at that point.
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my issue with it is that it ties us into a whole bunch of possible messes with nations we may not really be aligned with. Turkey is the big one for me.

this current war in Ukraine is a great example. Right now its Russia vs Ukraine. lets say France decides to be dumb and sends in combat troops and starts getting involved. lets say they launch missiles or aircraft from France. Lets say responds and bombs that air base in France.

per my understanding that wouldn't invoke Article 5, because France joined a war, and wasn't attacked first. but its very likely that many NATO nations would feel compelled to join the fight to protect their NATO ally regardless of article 5 or not. war hawks in DC would push for our involvement under that scenario.
 
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#86,822
#86,822
LouderVol said:
my issue with it is that it ties us into a whole bunch of possible messes with nations we may not really be aligned with. Turkey is the big one for me.

this current war in Ukraine is a great example. Right now its Russia vs Ukraine. lets say France decides to be dumb and sends in combat troops and starts getting involved. lets say they launch missiles or aircraft from France. Lets say responds and bombs that air base in France.

per my understanding that wouldn't invoke Article 5, because France joined a war, and wasn't attacked first. but its very likely that many NATO nations would feel compelled to join the fight to protect their NATO ally regardless of article 5 or not. war hawks in DC would push for our involvement under that scenario.
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Not really Granted, I am going off old school diplomacy but if a nation joins an existing war, they are a co-belligerent at that point. Therefore if the opposing nation attacks them, it is not an unprovoked attack.

Turkey is an odd ball but the USA was the main player in trying to get them in because they had a border with the USSR and we could put nukes there. It was the whole Cuba/Turkey trade each time with the USSR to get military forces off each other's back yard.
 
#86,823
#86,823
BeardedVol said:
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I told yall, both sides. Trump isn't ideologically set to either side. he will align with whoever makes him look the best, in his opinion. If Russia starts effing around with a Trump deal, Trump is going to be upset and it will push him to be far more pro-Ukrainian than he has been.
 
#86,825
#86,825
LouderVol said:
I told yall, both sides. Trump isn't ideologically set to either side. he will align with whoever makes him look the best, in his opinion. If Russia starts effing around with a Trump deal, Trump is going to be upset and it will push him to be far more pro-Ukrainian than he has been.
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Did you watch or read his response?

Rubio has the entire combined output of the US intelligence apparatus, and whatever information our former European allies still share with us, and he's still claiming ignorance.
 
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