What Atheists Believe

#276
#276
Atheism is an affirmation of the notion that there is no "supernatural". Those who affirm it do so often with smug confidence that they are simply being "rational" and not "assuming" anything. Nothing could be further from the truth. EVERYONE operates on some type of faith concerning the nature of reality.
 
#279
#279
sjt18 said:
So by what you said within this single sentence.... the proof lies on you since you are a "believer" that there is no proof of a god. You are saying proof is only proof if YOU can experience it in a direct and discernible way. I will posit something along that same line of reasoning... there is no proof of evolution since I have not and cannot experience it in a direct and discernible way.

That's actually the serious point here. What you are really saying is that believers must provide proof that YOU can experience without being a believer.
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Burden of proof lies on the believers. The case is being made daily in favor of evolution. The case for God? Never changes. The argument is always the same. The objective of the scientific method is to prove, not disprove.

Your "personal proof of God as a believer" could be made up. There is zero tangible evidence in support of it. How can one prove that there is no God? By being unable to prove that it exists.

sjt18 said:
I would expand that to include ALL religious presuppositions. It should be just as illegal to impose an atheistic or humanist pov as it is to impose any flavor of religion.
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I'm not advocating an atheistic nation. I'm advocating a state without religion. Where decisions are made sans religious influence, whether that's Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or atheist (since you consider it a religion). Teach science in the classroom and religion in the pews.

sjt18 said:
No. My worldview informed and shaped by my religious beliefs is every bit as valid and appropriate in the public square as yours derived from a humanistic, atheistic pov.

What you are effectively saying is that YOU have the right to demand that I behave according to your beliefs and keep my dissent private.... until you decide to over rule me there too.
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Okay. Fair enough. So, how would you feel if my atheist friends and I picketed your church because you're religious? What if I hurled slurs at you because you have belief in a higher power? And if we went on television and burned Bibles? I don't think that would go over so well with you... so then you would know how it is for homosexuals and girls that have to make the tough decision to abort.

The world doesn't evolve around you or your religious beliefs.
 
#281
#281
sjt18 said:
Atheism is an affirmation of the notion that there is no "supernatural". Those who affirm it do so often with smug confidence that they are simply being "rational" and not "assuming" anything. Nothing could be further from the truth. EVERYONE operates on some type of faith concerning the nature of reality.
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Atheism is an affirmation? That's a blanket statement that doesn't hold up.
 
#283
#283
Justification taken deontologically, in terms of intellectual rights and obligations, is more problematic here than in the case of theism. Clearly, a person (including a highly educated, wholly with-it, twenty-first-century person who has read all the latest objections to Christian belief) could be justified in accepting these and other Christian beliefs and would be justified if (for example) after careful and nonculpable reflection and investigation into the alleged objections and defeaters, she still found those beliefs wholly compelling. She could hardly be blamed for believing what strongly seems, after extensive investigation, to be the truth of the matter. (She's supposed to believe what seems false to her?) As for the various analogical extensions of justification in this original sense - being responsible, doing as well as could be expected with respect to your part in belief formation, and the like - again, it is obvious, I think, both that believers can meet these conditions and that many believers do meet them.

Plantinga
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I think this is an interesting position and it is hard to argue with the logic; however, I do find that according to my personal experience the greater majority of believers do not meet the conditions for justified belief that Plantinga lays out. Instead, the vast majority of believers that I have met steer clear of Hume, Descartes, Lock, Bertrand Russell, Epicurus, et cetera.
 
#284
#284
I think that is more a result of social pressures than an individual unwillingness or inability to confront challenges to their beliefs (which still happens).

Unfortunately there are many things in conservative American culture that are taboo to discuss even at a basic level which leads to poorer understanding. I remember how aghast my mom was when I picked up Marx at 14 years old.

Cumulative path of least resistance, I suppose.
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#285
#285
therealUT said:
I think this is an interesting position and it is hard to argue with the logic; however, I do find that according to my personal experience the greater majority of believers do not meet the conditions for justified belief that Plantinga lays out. Instead, the vast majority of believers that I have met steer clear of Hume, Descartes, Lock, Bertrand Russell, Epicurus, et cetera.
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From my experiences, many believers don't know they exist, having never heard of them. Sadly, they are left unconsidered, and for any number of other reasons than mere ignorance (i.e. they fear finding it a daunting challenge, they have no desire, etc.)
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#286
#286
milohimself said:
I think that is more a result of social pressures than an individual unwillingness or inability to confront challenges to their beliefs (which still happens).

Unfortunately there are many things in conservative American culture that are taboo to discuss even at a basic level which leads to poorer understanding. I remember how aghast my mom was when I picked up Marx at 14 years old.

Cumulative path of least resistance, I suppose.
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Societal pressures prevent people from confronting challenges to their faith?

I would agree, but them we'd both be wrong.

No, I don't believe that society and all of its "pressures" serves as an insulating barrier to the faith of believers - in fact, an easier (and more accurate, i believe) argument can be made that just the opposite is true, and that our society is a constant assault upon it, instead. I'll be interested to read how you'll strive to support such a position.

I'd prefer you simply bragged about reading Marx at 14 (if true, and if that's something that you feel is laudable) rather than doing so by contorting some illogical statement into a makeshift seguay of misplaced bravado.
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#287
#287
Necessarily, any cognitive perception is a veridical perception of an objective reality. It now will be argued that it is conceptually impossible for there to be a veridical perception of God...from which it follows by modus tollens that it is impossible that there be a cognitive religious experience...A veridical sense perception must have an object that is able to exist when not actually perceived and be the common object of different sense perceptions. For this to be possible, the object must be housed in a space and time that includes both the object and perceiver. It then is shown that there is no religious experience analogue to this concept of objective existence, there being no analogous dimensions to space and time in which God, along with the perceiver, is housed and which can be invoked to make sense of God existing when not actually perceived and being the common object of different religious experiences. Because of this big disanalogy, God is categorically unsuited to serve as the object of a veridical perception, whether sensory or nonsensory.

Richard Gale On the Nature and Existence of God
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This puts a damper on the prospect of revelation.
 
#288
#288
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