What Coach Would You Prefer

#52
#52
bamawriter said:
While that is technically truse, I don't really think you can blame Dooley for UNC having too many men on the field.
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OTOH, a coach is pretty much snake bit when he has a couple of fluke losses right out of the gate that result in NCAA rule changes.
 
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#54
#54
OrangeByBirth said:
I'm amazed at how many arm-chair athletic directors (or athletic supporters?) howled for Will Muschamp but now that he's at Florida and stumbling quickly forget that they were upset he didn't come to UT.
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Muschamp will be fine.... You don't go 11-2 and SEC coach of the year by luck. The wheels came off of FL last year but they will bounce back this season.

The Brass tacks.... FL normally gets the top coach on their list and UT gets # 5 or 6.... Yep... Butch was down the list and time will tell.... :D
 
#56
#56
His recruiting is fine right now, but so far, he's a 5-7 coach, a losing coach at UT. Nothing more, nothing less. Right about where Derek Dooley was heading in to year two, but not as many wins.

I recall similar optimism for both Kiffin and Dooley's 2nd year; the best we've ever done this, the best we've done that, I like this approach, I like that approach, I like the feeling in the air.... blah, blah, blah.

Win football games! And until you've done that, you have nothing!
 
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#57
#57
NotoriousB-I-G said:
I'm happy with his recruiting, but so far, he's a 5-7 coach, a losing coach at UT. Nothing more, nothing less. Right about where Derek Dooley was heading in to year two, but not as many wins.


Win football games! And until you've done that, you have nothing!
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Winner... all coaches. Recruiting 33 - 3 star players don't win games. Coaches have to coach... :hi:
 
#58
#58
gogators13 said:
Winner... all coaches. Recruiting 33 - 3 star players don't win games. Coaches have to coach... :hi:
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I agree with you. I heard the same exact stuff from Vols fans after Kiffin's first year and again after Dooley's first year. UT fans had Dooley pegged as the next Knute Rockne after he beat NC State and heading into the Florida game. I'll never forget the feeling of watching UF blow UT out in the fashion many were convinced would happen in reverse.

So here we are again, after a very unimpressive 5-7 season, I'm hearing that CBJ is doing everything exactly right, he's the best ever, was such a hiring coup, we're so fortunate, etc.. He's 5 and damn 7, and as good as the SC win appeared at the time, the UF game was one of the most horribly coached UT games EVER, and that more than offset what we did v SC.

Win games, period.
 
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#59
#59
sjt18 said:
I don't think ANY Vol HC deserves a very long leash. I don't think UT can afford it. Some point to stability but stable mediocrity or worse aren't going to help a thing. If that was the goal then they should have just kept Dooley and accepted 5 and 6 win seasons.

That said, I am VERY satisfied at this moment in time seeing how things turn out with Jones. Yes, last season is still in the back of my mind to create doubt. But he has recruited some good looking players. It sounds like his off season development program has been disciplined and effective. If my impression of his plan/philosophy of coaching is correct then he may well become my favorite coach. I played for a coach in HS who would run the base set of plays over and over and over. We had to perfect one level before going on to the next. Execution was everything. One level of offensive complexity built on the last one but only after it was perfected.

That is what Jones seems to be doing. IOW's, you don't just customize a playbook to what the players happen to do well as they did in Fulmer's time. You truly "install" your base O and require the players to execute it... then the next level then the next.

If you don't get past the basic elements though then you aren't going to trick anyone. That could be an explanation for last fall. I have said and truly believe that a coach like Fulmer who "threw it all at them and went with what stuck" would have handled the team differently last year AND produced more wins. But if I am right about what Jones is doing then UT could see a level of consistent excellence similar to what Oregon has produced over the last few years... but with SEC level recruiting.
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The following remarks pertain specifically to comments in bold font. I wish I could provide a verbatim quote or definitive link for this observation, but I recall very clearly that Butch, members of his coaching staff, or both specifically said that progressive installation of their total offensive system would proceed only upon clear demonstration that the team had truly mastered more fundamental concepts. I believe that these comments were made in the context of last year's fall practice. In short, I would say that your assessment of Butch's modus operandi is absolutely correct.

Incidentally, remarkably similar observations were made in the aftermath of the Oregon game by one of their fans (see post no. 18 of How long? - Page 2 - VolNation):

"Looking at your Scout current verbal commits, there's a lot to like about the number of HS and JC four stars lined up to help out, though the list lacks O linemen. UT shares something with Oregon, a shallow in state talent pool. This means you need tireless recruiting efforts. If CBJ is that guy, you'll be a force soon.

As a CFB junkie, I watched the cut ups here of your offense and defense these past weeks. They were somewhat funny because you could readily see how Oregon would destroy UT in all three phases. Make Worley beat you and make the D overcommit to the perimeter run.

But something else is on that tape too. CBJ is installing a system this year, results be damned. Rather than play to the strengths of a team he didn't build, he's making them play his chosen systems. That's not about this year or next, its about re-establishing a culture of winning. It's about getting these players to be the mentors of classes yet to come. It's about playing whistle to whistle even in the face of long odds.

We faced Dooley in his first year. I saw a team that had no identity, one that the week following had LSU on death's door and let them escape via disorganization. Sloppy.

CBJ's squad was powerfully overmatched, but what I saw was organization and discipline remaining solid. The UT team didnt quit. Didn't get chippy, and fought to the end. There's a lot to build on in that."

'tis nice to see that an Oregon fan could see the physical manifestation of those foundational principles three games into Butch Jones' first season, even if many Tennessee fans focused only on the short-term deficiencies represented on the scoreboard. Herbstreit said much the same on the ESPN GameDay show that Saturday: "Tennessee's coming. Their great times are ahead of them with Butch Jones."
 
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#60
#60
NotoriousB-I-G said:
Hate to agree with a Gator but I agree with you. I heard the same exact stuff from fellow Vols fans after Kiffin's first year and again after Dooley's first year. Our fans had Dooley pegged as the next Knute Rockne after we beat NC State and heading into the Florida game, me included. I'll never forget the feeling of watching UF blow us out in the fashion I was convinced we'd blow them out.

So here we are again, after a very unimpressive 5-7 season, I'm hearing that CBJ is doing everything exactly right, he's the best ever, was such a hiring coup, we're so fortunate, etc.. He's 5 and damn 7, and as good as the SC win appeared at the time, the UF game was one of the most horribly coached UT games EVER, and that more than offset what we did v SC.

Win games, or gtfo!
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TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!

You likely love agreeing with gators b/c you are one.

Very few, possibly just you, had LK and DD pegged as the next Knute Rockne. That's just stu pidass.

Unimpressive 5-7....what the hell did you expect with what we had to work with. Really? Just think about that for a moment. Nothing worse then people who can't use critical thinking skills to determine why then current personnel equates to a 5-7 season. Anyone who can't see that is dumb and damn dumber. I'm sorry!

Without doing research at this hour.....there have been much worse games that were horribly coached with much more talent then what we had last year.

As far as gtfo.....? You should adhere to your own words!

Peace!

Go Vols!

P.S. And NO....the florida game did not offset what we did to those cocks from the east! NOPE!
 
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#62
#62
There is something comforting about how predictable VN is. I see we are currently right on schedule and in the "our coach can do no wrong" portion of every UT coach's tenure.

While I agree that there are reasons to be hopeful about Butch, I'm amazed at how much mileage he's getting out of one win (that happened in the middle of October and was followed up by losing four of the next five). Other than South Carolina, here are the other four pelts Butch has nailed to the wall:
Western Kentucky, finished 8-4
South Alabama, 6-6
Kentucky, 2-10
Austin Peay, 0-12
And before you seize on the "other than South Carolina" phrase, granted that was a great win-he beat a ranked team. The problem is we played seven ranked teams. Is it too much of a stretch to think that out of seven tries, a lot of coaches may have pulled off one win?

At the end of the day, wins are the only way to fairly judge a coach's tenure, and while Butch's recruiting gives you hope of a potentially successful run here, it's just that-potential. He has yet to turn that potential into results that matter. THAT'S NOT TO SAY HE WON'T. But have we really seen anything that necessarily says he will? Does beating SCAR really outweigh the Peterman debacle against FL? Does SCAR really outweigh losing at home to a Vandy team that was all that stood between us and a bowl? VANDY?? Does beating SCAR outweigh losing to Oregon, AL, Auburn, and Missouri by a combined score of 166-50? Does SCAR outweigh all of these combined and really convince you that Butch is this orange-clad savior people are billing him as?

Don't' get me wrong, I think Butch deserves a total pass regarding the performances we had against quality opponents last season. He inherited a total dumpster fire. But we have somehow gone from not holding those thrashings AGAINST him to somehow equating last year's performance as a justification of how great of a coach he is! It's like our fans are suffering from selective amnesia (which might not be surprising considering the curb-stompings we took).
tldr
Maybe if we aren't so quick to place every UT hire on a pedestal, we won't have people burning furniture or drinking wine through their anus if things don't work out.
 
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#64
#64
Many of you guys get irritated over fans for overestimating CBJ, which people are doing, yes. But think of this. The same qualities that are making fans believe in him are what is making high ranked recruits believe in him as well. The passion of our fan base may be what keeps him here if he is successful. I bet the vultures are already circling due to his recruiting alone. So I have no problem with fans believing in CBJ, even if it isn't warranted.
 
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#65
#65
NotoriousB-I-G said:
Hate to agree with a Gator but I agree with you. I heard the same exact stuff from fellow Vols fans after Kiffin's first year and again after Dooley's first year. Our fans had Dooley pegged as the next Knute Rockne after we beat NC State and heading into the Florida game, me included. I'll never forget the feeling of watching UF blow us out in the fashion I was convinced we'd blow them out.

So here we are again, after a very unimpressive 5-7 season, I'm hearing that CBJ is doing everything exactly right, he's the best ever, was such a hiring coup, we're so fortunate, etc.. He's 5 and damn 7, and as good as the SC win appeared at the time, the UF game was one of the most horribly coached UT games EVER, and that more than offset what we did v SC.

Win games, or gtfo!
Click to expand...


They coached Peterman to be scared and a turnover machine? Interesting take. Ignorant. But interesting.
 
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#68
#68
#72
#72
sjt18 said:
I like what I have seen from Jones. Only a couple of remaining questions for me.

One, can he actually coach from a strategy, game-week, and gameday angle? I never liked Kiffin very much. But I was impressed with what he was able to do against Bama and UF that year. He outcoached and frustrated the two best coaches in the SEC.

Two, how will he manage his staff and choose replacements? A good leader will surround themselves with the "right" people. That may not mean the guys with the best resumes. It may mean people who have not succeeded under other leaders. But the truth is that the success of a leader will always depend on the quality of the people they hire. This was Fulmer's main downfall. He didn't have the right people around him and let personal loyalties get in the way of correcting it. Hopefully, this won't be Jones.

I've told my boss is that my goal is to hire people that I will eventually lose to promotion or else to better opportunities elsewhere. I don't want people who I have to discipline or fire. You inevitably lose people... I'd rather lose them because they're "too good" for the job they're in. It seems that something similar would apply to building a football staff. Yes, you want some continuity... but you also want the kind of people that other programs want to promote.
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First, Kiffy did that with Fulmer's recruits. Jones had to work with Dooley's recruits. Not complaining about individual players, but about all the misses Doofus and Kiffy made. That's why he is gone, and I feel for any former Vol playing their home games in Jerry's house.

I can see your analogy of hiring people YOU will eventually lose. In this case, are you saying there are "better opportunities" than Tennessee? If so, Tennessee needs to correct that.

Eventually, some position coaches may get coordinator offers, and coordinators get head coaching offers. If things go well, that is inevitable. But lateral moves? No way. You find ways to keep them.
 
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