What is Tom Brady's place among the 5 greatest QBs in NFL history?

#51
#51
NEO said:
The guys were not as but the head blows we’re insane. The CT issues from that era price it. Young retired due to concussions. The way they could slam you back then was brutal. Concussion protocol didn’t exist either so those guys were playing light headed and dazed.
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Steve Young had like 750 attempts in the 80's. He's a 90's player.

I concede that they had fewer rules protecting the QB's head, but that's only one kind of injury. You still gotta worry about all the bones and all the joints, and all the legal ways that those can be hurt in the pocket x 40 dropbacks (instead of x15 or whatever).
 
#52
#52
n_huffhines said:
Steve Young had like 750 attempts in the 80's. He's a 90's player.

I concede that they had fewer rules protecting the QB's head, but that's only one kind of injury. You still gotta worry about all the bones and all the joints, and all the legal ways that those can be hurt in the pocket x 40 dropbacks (instead of x15 or whatever).
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Pre 2005 is pretty much the same era rules wise. 2005 is when all the changes began to occur including horse collar. And very few QBs worried about knee issues. It was brain and neck once the pro style offense took hold. I think Cobb and Moon were some of the few dual threat QBs, maybe Favre in a weird scramble way. Favre can’t even remember huge chunks of years.
 
#53
#53
NEO said:
Pre 2005 is pretty much the same era rules wise. 2005 is when all the changes began to occur including horse collar. And very few QBs worried about knee issues. It was brain and neck once the pro style offense took hold. I think Cobb and Moon were some of the few dual threat QBs, maybe Favre in a weird scramble way. Favre can’t even remember huge chunks of years.
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Things definitely got safer for dual-threat QB's, but that's not who Tom Brady is, obviously. I mean, did Marino ever once get horse-collared?

It's really hard to tell which was the bigger grind. I think the same is true of the NBA. Yeah, there was more banging in the paint back in the day, but John Stockton mostly only had to worry about Olajuwon when he went in the paint. In today's NBA, Curry isn't as scared to go in the paint but Gobert is putting his body on Steph Curry 25x a night via high screens at the 3p line. It's just a completely different type of grind.
 
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#55
#55
Volizona said:
I think all of the greats of years past would light it up due to all of the rule changes that benefit offenses. You were allowed to touch the QB and defenses could throw receivers on the ground when they played. Even Montana up to the early 90s got hit hard. They better question to ask is “how would the QBs of today do in the old NFL? “ my vote is “not as well”. Don’t give me that bigger stronger faster nonesense either. The QBs in the past were tougher with more challenging rules. Brady wouldn’t have lasted 5 years in the 70s or 80s. Before you young pups call me a boomer, I’m actually a gen x er.
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Brady and Manning both are great game managers and got rid of the ball quickly so they could have played in almost any era and had long careers.
 
#56
#56
n_huffhines said:
Steve Young had like 750 attempts in the 80's. He's a 90's player.

I concede that they had fewer rules protecting the QB's head, but that's only one kind of injury. You still gotta worry about all the bones and all the joints, and all the legal ways that those can be hurt in the pocket x 40 dropbacks (instead of x15 or whatever).
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Isn't there now a rule about making contact with a QB's legs? Isn't there now a rule about landing on a QB with any of the defenders weight? Isn't there now a rule about slinging a QB into the ground? Isn't there now a rule against a defender making any forcible contact with his helmet anywhere on a QB's body? Isn't a defender now responsible for knowing when a ball is released and not taking more than a step before making contact with QB?

Regardless of the number of pass attempts, QBs in the modern game are far more protected and less likely to be hit or injured than the pre 1980's era.
 
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#57
#57
dobre_shunka said:
Isn't there now a rule about making contact with a QB's legs? Isn't there now a rule about landing on a QB with any of the defenders weight? Isn't there now a rule about slinging a QB into the ground? Isn't there now a rule against a defender making any forcible contact with his helmet anywhere on a QB's body? Isn't a defender now responsible for knowing when a ball is released and not taking more than a step before making contact with QB?

Regardless of the number of pass attempts, QBs in the modern game are far more protected and less likely to be hit or injured than the pre 1980's era.
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If there is, then that one would be called 5x a night.

From the start I have acknowledged they changed the rules to protect the QB more. I already made this argument for you. What I'm saying is we can't conclude what you just tried to conclude.

I mean, look at this list. Even with modern sports medicine, it's not dominated by modern era guys (and leaves off George Blanda for some reason, who played in more than Brady). Favre, Elway, Moon, Testavede, and Marino are all from the previous era and played with big dudes. Manning and to a lesser extent, Brees and Brady, bridged both eras. And then you have Big Ben, Eli, Rivers, Rodgers, and Matt Ryan.

So yeah, I would say guys are playing longer, but we know at least part of that is due to off-the-field stuff, not necessarily a decline in danger on the field.

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#58
#58
n_huffhines said:
If there is, then that one would be called 5x a night.

From the start I have acknowledged they changed the rules to protect the QB more. I already made this argument for you. What I'm saying is we can't conclude what you just tried to conclude.

I mean, look at this list. Even with modern sports medicine, it's not dominated by modern era guys (and leaves off George Blanda for some reason, who played in more than Brady). Favre, Elway, Moon, Testavede, and Marino are all from the previous era and played with big dudes. Manning and to a lesser extent, Brees and Brady, bridged both eras. And then you have Big Ben, Eli, Rivers, Rodgers, and Matt Ryan.

So yeah, I would say guys are playing longer, but we know at least part of that is due to off-the-field stuff, not necessarily a decline in danger on the field.

View attachment 434187
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From Rule 12, Article 11 here are all the possible ways in which roughing the passer can and should be called:

(2) if an opponent lowers his head and makes forcible contact with any part of his helmet against any part of the passer’s body. This provision does not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or the helmet in the course of a conventional block.
 
#59
#59
dobre_shunka said:
Isn't there now a rule about making contact with a QB's legs? Isn't there now a rule about landing on a QB with any of the defenders weight? Isn't there now a rule about slinging a QB into the ground? Isn't there now a rule against a defender making any forcible contact with his helmet anywhere on a QB's body? Isn't a defender now responsible for knowing when a ball is released and not taking more than a step before making contact with QB?

Regardless of the number of pass attempts, QBs in the modern game are far more protected and less likely to be hit or injured than the pre 1980's era.
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Exactly. Who cares if defensive lineman were only 220 lbs in the old days. The QBs still got hit by them, hard and often. Who cares if today’s d lineman are 300 pounds. Today’s QBs get hit a lot less frequently. You can’t compare stats today vs decades ago. It’s more like the arena league today vs more physical and smash mouth in the old days.
 
#60
#60
hog88 said:
Brady and Manning both are great game managers and got rid of the ball quickly so they could have played in almost any era and had long careers.
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Who would have caught all of those short quick passes in the old days? How often were receivers thrown to the ground and pushed and shoved by the DBs without any kind of interference?
 
#61
#61
n_huffhines said:
If there is, then that one would be called 5x a night.

From the start I have acknowledged they changed the rules to protect the QB more. I already made this argument for you. What I'm saying is we can't conclude what you just tried to conclude.

I mean, look at this list. Even with modern sports medicine, it's not dominated by modern era guys (and leaves off George Blanda for some reason, who played in more than Brady). Favre, Elway, Moon, Testavede, and Marino are all from the previous era and played with big dudes. Manning and to a lesser extent, Brees and Brady, bridged both eras. And then you have Big Ben, Eli, Rivers, Rodgers, and Matt Ryan.

So yeah, I would say guys are playing longer, but we know at least part of that is due to off-the-field stuff, not necessarily a decline in danger on the field.

View attachment 434187
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The biggest delta between QBs of old vs current is yards per completion. All of the old QBs threw down the field more because they had to. They couldnt stand there and throw 5 yard passes all day like modern QBs since the defense could flatten receivers at the line and basically do whatever they wanted to. Statistics in the modern game are overinflated due to new rules enabling constant dinking and dunking. Find a great QB of old who has a lower yard per completion % than Brady. He has thrived on short passes and yards after the catch more than anyone. I’m not talking about yards per attempt which is inflated due to short passes resulting in higher completion %s. Yes, Brady has had a great career but I think he gets way overinflated based on the era he plays in the short pass offenses he has played in. Nobody is going to change my opinion that there were many QBs as good or better than him in the old days and that is true for some of todays QBs as well. Sorry, I just haven’t seen him forced to make a lot of difficult throws over his career.
 
#62
#62
dobre_shunka said:
From Rule 12, Article 11 here are all the possible ways in which roughing the passer can and should be called:

(2) if an opponent lowers his head and makes forcible contact with any part of his helmet against any part of the passer’s body. This provision does not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or the helmet in the course of a conventional block.
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Thanks for the clarification. Idk how forcible is interpreted but dudes always do the thing where they put both hands and their helmet into the QB's chest and knock him over and it only gets called if it's late.
 
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#63
#63
Volizona said:
The biggest delta between QBs of old vs current is yards per completion. All of the old QBs threw down the field more because they had to. They couldnt stand there and throw 5 yard passes all day like modern QBs since the defense could flatten receivers at the line and basically do whatever they wanted to. Statistics in the modern game are overinflated due to new rules enabling constant dinking and dunking. Find a great QB of old who has a lower yard per completion % than Brady. He has thrived on short passes and yards after the catch more than anyone. I’m not talking about yards per attempt which is inflated due to short passes resulting in higher completion %s. Yes, Brady has had a great career but I think he gets way overinflated based on the era he plays in the short pass offenses he has played in. Nobody is going to change my opinion that there were many QBs as good or better than him in the old days and that is true for some of todays QBs as well. Sorry, I just haven’t seen him forced to make a lot of difficult throws over his career.
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Yeah they could, they just didn't thnk of it yet and when they did, it took off. West coast offense is short passes and Montana won 4 SB's with it before all these rule changes. It was invented by Lavell Edwards and Swamp Rat in like 1977 or something.
 
#64
#64
Volizona said:
Exactly. Who cares if defensive lineman were only 220 lbs in the old days. The QBs still got hit by them, hard and often. Who cares if today’s d lineman are 300 pounds. Today’s QBs get hit a lot less frequently. You can’t compare stats today vs decades ago. It’s more like the arena league today vs more physical and smash mouth in the old days.
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Sorry, I'd much rather get clotheslined by a guy who looks like he plays JC and smokes at halftime than get sandwiched between Aaron Donald and Von Miller, but that's just me.

The era was dominated by 200 lb Joe Montana for crying out loud.
 
#65
#65
Volizona said:
Who would have caught all of those short quick passes in the old days? How often were receivers thrown to the ground and pushed and shoved by the DBs without any kind of interference?
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. . . and linemen couldn't even extend their arms in pass protection. Imagine trying to pass protect against Aaron Donald like a T-Rex. Combine that with bump and run coverage that killed the quick stuff and heavier looks up front and teams had to run 21 personnel just to keep the QB from getting killed. Even when you watch old Dallas Cowboys videos footage with Roger Staubach in Shotgun, it looks like short punt formation with personal protectors lol.
 
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#67
#67
n_huffhines said:
This is interesting, average sacks surrendered per game per team:

Last 10 years = 2.2 - 2.5
90s = 2.1 - 2.6
80s = 2.3 - 2.9
70s = 2.1 - 2.6

NFL Season By Season Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com
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Very interesting.

A little surprising that sacks have stayed so constant, but when you consider that NFL teams probably throw it at least 10-15 more times per game than they did 40 years ago, it's less surprising. Sacks per attempt is down pretty significantly which is what I would expect with all the spread, quick throws and rule changes to open up the game.
 
#68
#68
GAVol said:
Very interesting.

A little surprising that sacks have stayed so constant, but when you consider that NFL teams probably throw it at least 10-15 more times per game than they did 40 years ago, it's less surprising. Sacks per attempt is down pretty significantly which is what I would expect with all the spread, quick throws and rule changes to open up the game.
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Also interesting

Mobile Quarterbacks and Injury Rates | Fantasy Points
 
#70
#70
GAVol said:
The mobile QB narrative has always been overblown and probably racist in some circles. Most of the guys that get hurt are either standing in the pocket like a statue waiting for a pigeon to crap on them or they're flushed after a dropback and take a shot.
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Yeah, but I would also say the way they now protect running QB's (besides Cam) changed things a lot.
 
#72
#72
GAVol said:
That's true. The slide rule and taking out the head hunting has definitely saved some guys.
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IMO, the horse collar was a big one for guys that aren't especially fast, like say Burrow. Vick, Jackson, Murray...these guys are not getting caught by linemen from behind, but it was dangerous for Elway to scramble because his speed was just good, not great. He could see what was coming and protect himself from that but he couldn't see that LT was running him down from behind.
 
#75
#75
I think the biggest thing in these debates is you gotta look at how much better a guy was vs. his peers and then consider how good his peers are/were.

Peyton Manning was head and shoulders above everybody not named Brady in a strong league and Brady was head and shoulders above him. Unitas was head and shoulders above everybody but not sure how strong the league was. Elway, Marino, and Montana were all kind of debatable in a strong league.

It just feels like it's gotta be Brady, no matter what the rule changes are.

Apply this to all GOAT debates. MJ was head and shoulders above everybody, but the league was almost completely devoid of big, quality guards to thwart him. He dominated more than Lebron does, but Lebron still dominates and the league is built to thwart a big wing/forward. The Warriors in one finals had more quality defenders to throw at Lebron than MJ saw against 5 finals opponents combined. So who is it. I know everybody is going to say MJ, but is it? Was it really that hard to shoot over little John Starks and Joe Dumars and Byron Scott and Hersey Hawkins and Jeff Hornacek and Kevin Johnson and so on?
 
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