Where does Mariano Rivera rank all time?

#1
YankeeVol

YankeeVol

Raise Hell, Praise Dale
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
142,822
Likes
72,548
#1
Probably the best reliever ever. Almost automatic in the post season

Hard to rank him any higher than in the top 50 all time pitchers

Regardless it's still impressive and he'll be a first ballot HOFer
 
#4
#4
Best reliever of all time. Not among the top 100 pitchers of all time; maybe not even in the top 200. Still a certain and deserving Hall of Famer, obviously. (They call it the Hall of Fame, after all. Not the Hall of Top Accumulated Career Value.)

Having watched the career of John Smoltz up close, I believe the following two things to be true. First, you could turn just about any hard-throwing quality starter into a kickass closer if you wanted to. Second, you would throw away most of his value in the process. Smoltz was as good a closer as there's ever been when he was in the bullpen, but he had way less value to the team in that role. Watching that whole process has just made me convinced that there's a limit to how valuable a 65-75 inning pitcher can be.

I've always respected the hell out of Rivera, and I give him a ton of credit for what he did in the postseason, but his overall value is limited by his role. If you had a time machine that would take you back to 1996 and your goal was to take away as many World Series rings from the Yankees as possible, you'd be far better served to put a bullet in Andy Pettitte's head than you would Rivera's.
 
#5
#5
@Vercingetorix

Agreed. Same was true with one of the best closers/short relievers in Dennis Eckersley.
 
#6
#6
Funny thing is that, for all his success, the one time that he was on the mound in the ultimate do-or-die situation (Game 7 of a World Series), Arizona got two off of him to win it.
 
#7
#7
Ohio Vol said:
Funny thing is that, for all his success, the one time that he was on the mound in the ultimate do-or-die situation (Game 7 of a World Series), Arizona got two off of him to win it.
Click to expand...

Hey now, it did save the life of Enrique Wilson.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#8
#8
Vercingetorix said:
Best reliever of all time. Not among the top 100 pitchers of all time; maybe not even in the top 200. Still a certain and deserving Hall of Famer, obviously. (They call it the Hall of Fame, after all. Not the Hall of Top Accumulated Career Value.)

Having watched the career of John Smoltz up close, I believe the following two things to be true. First, you could turn just about any hard-throwing quality starter into a kickass closer if you wanted to. Second, you would throw away most of his value in the process. Smoltz was as good a closer as there's ever been when he was in the bullpen, but he had way less value to the team in that role. Watching that whole process has just made me convinced that there's a limit to how valuable a 65-75 inning pitcher can be.

I've always respected the hell out of Rivera, and I give him a ton of credit for what he did in the postseason, but his overall value is limited by his role. If you had a time machine that would take you back to 1996 and your goal was to take away as many World Series rings from the Yankees as possible, you'd be far better served to put a bullet in Andy Pettitte's head than you would Rivera's.
Click to expand...


Garbage. If you do not have the mental makeup to be a closer I don't care what kind of stuff you have.
 
#12
#12
VOLinthaATL said:
Garbage. If you do not have the mental makeup to be a closer I don't care what kind of stuff you have.
Click to expand...

God, I've missed you and your passionate defense of the Tim McCarver school of baseball. You don't think Halladay or Verlander or Lincecum or Kershaw or Lee or Sabathia or Hernandez could close? I watched Kerry Ligtenberg save 30 games for the Braves one year; if he could do that then yeah, you could take just about any top-of-the-rotation starter with outstanding stuff and a great fastball and turn him into a great one-inning-at-a-time closer. You ever see how hard Roger Clemens threw in an all-star game when he knew he didn't have to pace himself?

Guys like Rivera and Hoffman don't end up in the bullpen because they have some badass gunslinger "mental makeup." They end up in the bullpen because they don't have enough pitches to get through a lineup more than once. It's amazing how much some of you guys will just swallow the mythology.
 
#13
#13
Rivera has proved that you only need one pitch to get people out. I'm fairly confident he could get through any lineup anytime.

And you started with "hard-throwing quality starter," to "top-of the-rotation starter," above (your words) and the guys you listed. They are all more than just a "hard-throwing quality starter" (your words).

Do you know how many guys there are currently in the minors that can throw it through a wall but can't get anybody out? Being able to throw hard or having good stuff means nothing if you cannot locate or throw it over the plate which is 100x more important when closing when there is often little room for error over starting when you have time to catch up...

And please don't ever, EVER, use an All-Star game to prove a point. :good!:

BTW, Tim McCarver is a clown.

:hi:
 
Last edited:
#14
#14
#1 reliever
As far as ranking him in pitching greats all time that would be difficult. How do you compare starters versus relievers?
Relievers are like blisters, they should up after the work is done and get all the attention.
 
#15
#15
alaVOL said:
#1 reliever
As far as ranking him in pitching greats all time that would be difficult. How do you compare starters versus relievers?
Relievers are like blisters, they should up after the work is done and get all the attention.
Click to expand...

Andy Petitte, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, CC Sabathia, David Cone, David Wells, Randy Johnson, & El Duque Hernandez would all disagree. I guarantee it.
 
#16
#16
VOLinthaATL said:
Rivera has proved that you only need one pitch to get people out. I'm fairly confident he could get through any lineup anytime.
Click to expand...

Even the great Mariano Rivera couldn't get through a lineup three times throwing only one pitch. You can't let major-league hitters get that good a look at what you're throwing multiple times in the same game. They will catch up and they will hit it. Can you name even one (non-knuckleballing) quality major-league starter who doesn't have at least a credible third pitch that he can show to hitters?


And you started with "hard-throwing quality starter," to "top-of the-rotation starter," above (your words) and the guys you listed. They are all more than just a "hard-throwing quality starter" (your words).

Do you know how many guys there are currently in the minors that can throw it through a wall but can't get anybody out? Being able to throw hard or having good stuff means nothing if you cannot locate or throw it over the plate which is 100x more important when closing when there is often little room for error over starting when you have time to catch up…
Click to expand...

We are talking about major-league quality pitchers all the way around. The far right end of the bell curve. They can all mostly throw it over the plate. Brad Lidge and Brian Wilson both walk four guys per nine innings and it hasn't seemed to kill their careers much.

This isn't magic. You show up in rookie ball and they evaluate how many plus pitches you have. If it's three or more, they peg you as a potential starter. If it's only one or two, they peg you as a reliever. As you move up through the minors, two things happen. If you're starting, they usually decide that one or two of your plus pitches isn't that plus after all, and they move you to the bullpen. And the best relievers start getting groomed as potential closers. There's nothing mentally special about a closer; he's just a guy who got turned into a reliever early on thanks to his pitch selection, and then he was the best guy in his organization at getting hitters out one inning at a time.

Back in the ancient days when Goose Gossage walked the earth, then yeah, relief pitchers had to have a special ability to deal with the random, simply because their role was so unpredictable. One minute you're lounging around in the bullpen in the 6th inning, the next you're on the mound with the bases loaded in a one-run game. But now the role of the modern closer is so sanitized and streamlined that it's as predictable and routine for Brian Wilson to get ready to pitch the 9th as it is for Tim Lincecum to get ready to pitch the 1st. All the attitude and preening you see around that role now is just mythology.

And please don't ever, EVER, use an All-Star game to prove a point. :good!:
Click to expand...

The point is that Clemens got 5 mph more on his fastball simply by knowing that he'd only be throwing 25 pitches instead of 100. There are a ton of guys out there with closer-quality stuff if only teams would think a little more outside the box.

BTW, Tim McCarver is a clown.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Yet you seem to believe most of the hoary old conventional wisdom about baseball that he does.

Nice to see you again. Come on in the Braves thread and we can talk about how Prado is one of the Braves' best hitters some more.
 
#18
#18
You call something I say "garbage," I offer arguments to back it up, and you run away because "you know what you know" as you always do. Apparently your debating skills haven't improved any.
 
#19
#19
Dude, there is no reason to argue with a snarky poster on a message board who thinks he is smarter than everyone and has no experience in the game but thinks he knows it all. I have better things to do.
 
#20
#20
How about this?

You act like you know exactly what goes on in rookie ball. Do you have actual experience such as being present in rookie ball or are you just talking out your ass?
 
#21
#21
E-fight, do it right!

Seriously, he's not even the best pitcher in the game today much less on some subjective all-time list.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#22
#22
VOLinthaATL said:
How about this?

You act like you know exactly what goes on in rookie ball. Do you have actual experience such as being present in rookie ball or are you just talking out your ass?
Click to expand...

Seriously, I'd like you to do me a favor. I mean this. Please reach over to the right and click ignore under my name. You disagree with literally everything I post, apparently, but instead of refuting it with arguments and facts, you just call it "garbage" and leave it at that. So then I respond with arguments supporting my position. And since you're apparently incapable of having an actual discussion, you always reply with personal attacks, huff angrily about how you know what you know, and that's it. Until the next time you call something I post "garbage" and it starts over again.

I've spent far too much time trying to have a decent argument with you about baseball only to have you take personal shots at me because you can't do any better. So please -- put me on ignore so you won't see my posts anymore, because talking about baseball with you is useless.
 
#25
#25
#1ArencibiaFan said:
What do you know about developing pitchers? Vercingetorix is pretty much spot on so far, I'd like to know what he is so wrong about.
Click to expand...

You're kidding right?

I've played baseball my whole life. I pitched in college on a scholarship. I've coached ever since.

I've spent several summers helping coach the best high school players in the country at a baseball organization here in Cincinnati. I am very good friends with 20+ MLB scouts and know several former pitching coaches that I speak with on a regular basis. I work with college coaches and pitching coaches on a daily basis. I know a hell of alot about developing pitchers.

Some of what he says has some merit. No doubt about it. But the mental aspect of being a closer is much tougher than he thinks.

Perfect example. Did you see how the Cardinals lost yesterday? Jason Motte throws 100 with a pretty sick duece but he can't get anyone out and has been wildly inconsistent his whole career. Why do you think that is? It's absolutely not his stuff.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top