where is the mandate for change?

[dsbyrd]

What about those of us that hate our current president?

Uh, I will pray for you too, but God has told me he completely understands your views and has already forgiven you. That's why he smote Jerry Falwell, among other reasons.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I'm so sorry you won't help, you are obviously very emotional about this loss for you and your party. Maybe time will heal your wounds.

I will pray for you and all the people who hate our new president.

I'm not emotional about it. I have no party. I have conservatism. I have no wounds. I don't hate our new president.

I simply don't buy the ridiculous unity argument. You didn't either while Bush was running the show, and you shouldn't have.
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[TennTradition]

Uh, I will pray for you too, but God has told me he completely understands your views and has already forgiven you. That's why he smote Jerry Falwell, among other reasons.

Thanks...I need it. At some point in my life I'll look back on Bush and understand something about where he was coming from...but not right now. I hope that I can have a more favorable opinion of Obama's presidency, without a doubt.

 

[TennTradition]

I'm not emotional about it. I have no party. I have conservatism. I have no wounds. I don't hate our new president.

I simply don't buy the ridiculous unity argument. You didn't either while Bush was running the show, and you shouldn't have.
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I agree, BPV. When unity is needed, it generally comes (see the months following 9/11). Otherwise, it is just a political tool and a false pretense....

 

[dsbyrd]

I'm not emotional about it. I have no party. I have conservatism. I have no wounds. I don't hate our new president.

I simply don't buy the ridiculous unity argument. You didn't either while Bush was running the show, and you shouldn't have.
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You don't know me sir. I tried my hardest to support W, even though I didn't vote for him. A needless war in Iraq, abandoning New Orleans, torture, wholesale attacks on our civil liberties, rank incompetence, all made it hard, I admit. But until Jan. 20 he is still my President and I give him all the respect he deserves. I can't say enough good things about him.

 

[BigPapaVol]

You don't know me sir. I tried my hardest to support W, even though I didn't vote for him. A needless war in Iraq, abandoning New Orleans, torture, wholesale attacks on our civil liberties, rank incompetence, all made it hard, I admit. But until Jan. 20 he is still my President and I give him all the respect he deserves. I can't say enough good things about him.

rank incompetence hardly sounds like good things or respect. In fact, your list of talking points would make Ted Rall proud.
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[BigPapaVol]

I agree, BPV. When unity is needed, it generally comes (see the months following 9/11). Otherwise, it is just a political tool and a false pretense....

I was at the Army Navy game in Dec 2001 and that was the most unity I have ever seen. Inspirational.
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[dsbyrd]

. . . I have no party. I have conservatism. . . .
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What is this "conservatism" of which you speak? You imply it is more transcendent than mere party affiliation. Some seem to adhere to it with almost a religious fervor.

I truly want to understand. I am a liberal on most political issues but I don't see that as defining my identity.

Just trying to understand.

 

[therealUT]

You don't know me sir. I tried my hardest to support W, even though I didn't vote for him. A needless war in Iraq, abandoning New Orleans, torture, wholesale attacks on our civil liberties, rank incompetence, all made it hard, I admit. But until Jan. 20 he is still my President and I give him all the respect he deserves. I can't say enough good things about him.

The city of New Orleans spent generations making the bed that they slept in.

The people who have been waterboarded should have been tortured. They are lucky we are so merciful.


Wholesale attacks on civil liberties that America has recently extended to the rest of the world? Yes. Wholesale attack on our civil liberties? No.

Rank incompetence? No. His incompetence extended to his ability, or lack thereof, of laying out sound and convincing arguments and defenses for his actions. His incompetence also extended to his spending policies.

However, W was extremely competent in choosing which theater to focus our military effort. Prolonged and focused military efforts into Afghanistan has historically put nails in coffins of such major world empires and civilizations (the Macedonians, Mongols, British, Soviets). Civilizations that have conquered the present day region of Iraq have flourished.

 

[BigPapaVol]

What is this "conservatism" of which you speak? You imply it is more transcendent than mere party affiliation. Some seem to adhere to it with almost a religious fervor.

I truly want to understand. I am a liberal on most political issues but I don't see that as defining my identity.

Just trying to understand.

I don't remotely define myself by my conservatism. In fact, I'm socially ambivalent to liberal.

I believe we should endeavor to limit government involvement at every turn. I believe in a strong military. I believe in individualism and self actualization, good or bad. Gov't solutions are inevitably disaster and should be avoided at almost all costs, save military and infrastructure.

I want our gov't and its costs to shrink in perpetuity.
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[TennTradition]

trUT...your military knowledge completely overwhelms any that I thought (or will think) I ever had...but it seems to me that the fact that we're not looking to conquer Iraq undermines any prospects of flourishing through our invasion. Your comments about Afghanistan are interesting though.....would rooting out OBL nailed shut our coffin so to speak?

 

[dsbyrd]

The city of New Orleans spent generations making the bed that they slept in.

The people who have been waterboarded should have been tortured. They are lucky we are so merciful.


Wholesale attacks on civil liberties that America has recently extended to the rest of the world? Yes. Wholesale attack on our civil liberties? No.

Rank incompetence? No. His incompetence extended to his ability, or lack thereof, of laying out sound and convincing arguments and defenses for his actions. His incompetence also extended to his spending policies.

However, W was extremely competent in choosing which theater to focus our military effort. Prolonged and focused military efforts into Afghanistan has historically put nails in coffins of such major world empires and civilizations (the Macedonians, Mongols, British, Soviets). Civilizations that have conquered the present day region of Iraq have flourished.

You are right.

1. Those poor people in New Orleans were just asking for Katrina. They wanted it and you know it. They shouldn't have dressed so provocatively.

2. You are right about the waterboarding. Those who didn't receive harsher treatment should consider themselves lucky. Many "conservatives" don't trust the government to oversee education, Social Security, etc., but we should trust anonymous governmental operatives to decide who deserves to be detained indefinitely and tortured, with no judicial oversight. Not to mention whether or not to listen in on your phone calls or peruse your library lending list.

3. Attacks on our civil liberties- see No. 2 above.

4. Conquer Iraq? I thought we were there to liberate them and confiscate those imaginary weapons of mass destruction. You are not telling me there was another, unspoken agenda, are you?

 

[dsbyrd]

Gov't solutions are inevitably disaster and should be avoided at almost all costs, save military and infrastructure.
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You think Social Security was a disaster? You planning on drawing it? Gave my grandparents the ability to live out their elder years with some decency. They lost everything in the first Republican great depression, so I'm sorry if they weren't able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to your satisfaction.

The GI bill? My brother took advantage of it but I guess he should have have come back from Viet Nam and said no thanks to that government solution.

I can name more.

 

[therealUT]

trUT...your military knowledge completely overwhelms any that I thought (or will think) I ever had...but it seems to me that the fact that we're not looking to conquer Iraq undermines any prospects of flourishing through our invasion. Your comments about Afghanistan are interesting though.....would rooting out OBL nailed shut our coffin so to speak?

We are definitely not in Iraq to conquer it...that would have been a pretty easy chore. However, setting the conditions for stability will certainly lead to new colonialism in that region. As we begin to slowly turn over the security operations in the area to the Iraqi Security Forces and the Sunni involve themselves in the government, corporate interest from America will grow. Financial gains will be substantial.

Afghanistan certainly will never provide any financial return on our involvement. We will never find OBL nor will we find his remains. Eventually, the American people will find themselves exhausted with the search and we will leave. The Afghan tribes have proven time and time again that they are more than willing to destroy any and all infrastructure (to include roads and irrigation systems) in their struggles for what seems to us to be marginal and insignificant gains in land, power, and prestige. I would like to say that we could implement enough of a system to work, however, that would certainly take a completely one sided effort and more than likely two generations worth of occupation. America is not willing now, nor will they be when 9/11 is just a blurry memory, to sustain that kind of effort.

 

[therealUT]

You are right.

1. Those poor people in New Orleans were just asking for Katrina. They wanted it and you know it. They shouldn't have dressed so provocatively.

2. You are right about the waterboarding. Those who didn't receive harsher treatment should consider themselves lucky. Many "conservatives" don't trust the government to oversee education, Social Security, etc., but we should trust anonymous governmental operatives to decide who deserves to be detained indefinitely and tortured, with no judicial oversight. Not to mention whether or not to listen in on your phone calls or peruse your library lending list.

3. Attacks on our civil liberties- see No. 2 above.

4. Conquer Iraq? I thought we were there to liberate them and confiscate those imaginary weapons of mass destruction. You are not telling me there was another, unspoken agenda, are you?

1. Search news archives for stories that were published in New Orleans in the days immediately prior to Katrina. The government provided transportation to move those people to safe ground and out of harms way. They stayed. Alcohol sales boomed in New Orleans two days prior to Katrina. Hurricane Party!

2. You missed my point. Waterboarding is not torture.

3. Again, how is that an attack on our civil liberties???

4. The WMD argument was one of many put forth as justifiable causes for our involvement. Chief among them were UN Resolution violations. I could care less about the WMD justification. I care about the Resolutions, the integrity of treaties, and the dangerous precedents when countries are allowed to subvert such treaties.

 

[BigPapaVol]

You think Social Security was a disaster? You planning on drawing it? Gave my grandparents the ability to live out their elder years with some decency. They lost everything in the first Republican great depression, so I'm sorry if they weren't able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to your satisfaction.

The GI bill? My brother took advantage of it but I guess he should have have come back from Viet Nam and said no thanks to that government solution.

I can name more.

I absolutely think Social Security is a disaster and was a poorly conceived plan from the beginning.

No I don't plan to draw a red dime from it.

Discussions of Great Depressions from Republicans of yore is pretty well parallel with what I think you know and seems to fit your whiny excuse making style. I don't care if you feel sorry for people. Feeling sorry has produced countless worthless wards of the state who've done nothing more than generate frictional expense for our nation and sire more.

The GI bill is a simple recruiting tool that is part of the military pay package. I'm all for the program, because it helps people help themselves.

I know you'd rather fall back on the emotional argument that people need help because their situations are too difficult to deal with, but I just don't buy it in the least. The Great Depression wiped out the wealth of the vast majority of Americans, but somehow some groups figured out how to better themselves and make it better for their progeny. Some didn't and society at large owes them nothing.

Keep bringing me more and I'll keep telling you that self determination is one of the strongest forces in humans. Take that away, and you get generations of welfare style recipients, which is the great legacy of FDR.

 

[MG1968]

back to the OP:

the voter turnout Tuesday wasn't significantly greater than the turnout in 2004.

Prop 8 passed in California, 70 percent of African Americans voted for it. Gay marriage bans passed in 3 other states as well, including newly blue Florida.

 

[droski]

You think Social Security was a disaster? You planning on drawing it? Gave my grandparents the ability to live out their elder years with some decency. They lost everything in the first Republican great depression, so I'm sorry if they weren't able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to your satisfaction.

The GI bill? My brother took advantage of it but I guess he should have have come back from Viet Nam and said no thanks to that government solution.

I can name more.

GI bill good. social security bad.

 

[droski]

Looks like he is really moving towards the center: Obama Pick for Chief of Staff Criticized as Partisan Voice - WSJ.com

 

[OrangePappy]

In a time calling for unity, I was hoping to be spiritually inclusive.

That's what got us here, political correctness. Be nice, use common sense but don't abandon your beliefs just to keep from hurting someone's feelings.

 

[Chemvol]

That's what got us here, political correctness. Be nice, use common sense but don't abandon your beliefs just to keep from hurting someone's feelings.

Actually, I was just being sarcastic w/ both posts. I would prefer more serious discussion, but I don't have that much time to devote to posting during the day. I rarely reply more than once or twice to any thread in the politics forum.

 

[KB5252]

You are right.

1. Those poor people in New Orleans were just asking for Katrina. They wanted it and you know it. They shouldn't have dressed so provocatively.

2. You are right about the waterboarding. Those who didn't receive harsher treatment should consider themselves lucky. Many "conservatives" don't trust the government to oversee education, Social Security, etc., but we should trust anonymous governmental operatives to decide who deserves to be detained indefinitely and tortured, with no judicial oversight. Not to mention whether or not to listen in on your phone calls or peruse your library lending list.

3. Attacks on our civil liberties- see No. 2 above.

4. Conquer Iraq? I thought we were there to liberate them and confiscate those imaginary weapons of mass destruction. You are not telling me there was another, unspoken agenda, are you?

New Orleans was failed by their local officials. Any resources available would have been given had they asked. The local officials had no plan for a problem of this magnitude (even though it was a likely scenario). Because they were so ill prepared any response from the Federal government was so far behind the 8-ball there was no chance. The federal government has to assume local government has things under control until they are notified otherwise and asked for help.