Why do we assume socially conservative = "backwards", Is this ultimately argument by

#26
#26
CSpindizzy said:
"Progressives" gave blacks the rights to vote and not be forced to the back of the bus. They also gave women the right to vote and actually participate in government. You paint a broad stereotype of progressives as being evil.
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If you're refering to my comments, you're seeing things that aren't there.
 
#27
#27
Progressives also created the welfare state . . . and a tax system that redistributes wealth. They are not evil, but they are also not always the smartest guy in the room.
 
#28
#28
So you're saying both sides assume position of moral superiority and we should all be in the middle?
 
#29
#29
I don't think either side has a lock on bright ideas and superiority. Both sides have failed repeatedly and both have succeeded. To stereotype one side as being the better or the worst is not seeing reality.
 
#30
#30
CSpindizzy said:
I don't think either side has a lock on bright ideas and superiority. Both sides have failed repeatedly and both have succeeded. To stereotype one side as being the better or the worst is not seeing reality.
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Uh, yeah, that's what I'm getting at. There have been times when Conservatives have been right . . . There have been times when Progressives have been right. IMO, as tough as it is to believe sometimes, most people have noble intentions even when they are misguided.
 
#31
#31
CSpindizzy said:
So you're saying both sides assume position of moral superiority and we should all be in the middle?
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No, I'm saying leave the moral superiority at the door and let's debate based on ideas.
 
#34
#34
That's fine if both sides would do that. Right now the GOP is trying to retain control of Congress based on fear. The GOP is appealing to emotions..."we're being overrun by illegals, we're fighting wars and terrorists are everywhere and the GOP is the only party to handle this, etc. etc."

So basically we have no side arguing issues but only appealing to knee-jerk responses and emotional appeals.
 
#35
#35
CSpindizzy said:
That's fine if both sides would do that. Right now the GOP is trying to retain control of Congress based on fear. The GOP is appealing to emotions..."we're being overrun by illegals, we're fighting wars and terrorists are everywhere and the GOP is the only party to handle this, etc. etc."

So basically we have no side arguing issues but only appealing to knee-jerk responses and emotional appeals.
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Yet the Dems are trying to grab control based on fear. They appeal to the same emotions -- the ports aren't safe, terror is growing, the economy is failing, the world hates us, etc...
 
#36
#36
Jumping to conclusions? I'm taking the words posted here and asking questions on that. I see a few people attacking progressives which to me means those attacking are feeling a little morally superior themselves. Not everyone on either side has a right to claim being right and neither have a right to claim the other complete fools.

I'm just seeing a double standard here of saying leave the superiority at the door but only a few posts previous some pretty critical remarks attacking the other side.
 
#38
#38
CSpindizzy said:
And your point is?
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Just using your tried and true tactic. When someone posts a comment about one side, you jump in with one about the other.

Since you posted about the Repubs, I dropped one about the Dems. I thought that's how you roll :p
 
#39
#39
CSpindizzy said:
Right now the GOP is trying to retain control of Congress based on fear.
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I'll grant you that there is some of that going on, but you can't seriously be attributing this tactic only to the Republican Party. They all do it . . . repeatedly.
 
#40
#40
CSpindizzy said:
Jumping to conclusions? I'm taking the words posted here and asking questions on that. I see a few people attacking progressives which to me means those attacking are feeling a little morally superior themselves. Not everyone on either side has a right to claim being right and neither have a right to claim the other complete fools.

I'm just seeing a double standard here of saying leave the superiority at the door but only a few posts previous some pretty critical remarks attacking the other side.
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Let me explain my comment and hopefully you see why concluding I view progressives a "evil" is clearly a stretch.

While both sides view their perspective as superior, they do so in different ways. OE started the conversation asking about the progressive viewpoint that people who don't see things their way are backwards. I agree. The "superiority" view of that side is that they are the tolerant ones. The social conservative side doesn't claim tolerance as their calling card. They just believe they know better or over-value tradition or whatever. Given the "tolerance" trump card of the progressive side -- it is particularly annoying that they are very intolerant of viewpoints other than theirs. The equivalent hypocrisy is when social conservatives abandon tradition when it doesn't suit their needs.

Second point. Someone else suggested that social conservatives operate through an effort to control the behavior of people. The false dichotomy is that progressives somehow offer more freedom of behavior. They don't, the control mechanisms are merely different.

Hope that helps...
 
#41
#41
volinbham said:
Just using your tried and true tactic. When someone posts a comment about one side, you jump in with one about the other.

Since you posted about the Repubs, I dropped one about the Dems. I thought that's how you roll :p
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Obviously you completely missed my point. I said twice in that one post that both sides were using fear. You have been the one who only argues that one side does something when clearly both sides have. You're missing how I roll.....
 
#42
#42
GAVol said:
I'll grant you that there is some of that going on, but you can't seriously be attributing this tactic only to the Republican Party. They all do it . . . repeatedly.
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As I told volinbham....read the entire post. I cannot believe that something mentioned twice was completely overlooked by two people......
 
#43
#43
CSpindizzy said:
As I told volinbham....read the entire post. I cannot believe that something mentioned twice was completely overlooked by two people......
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I think what is happening here is that we're arguing the exact same point.
 
#44
#44
Since some are waiting for my response, and since I was not in town and around my computer most of the weekend, here goes.

There is nothing backwards are wrong about holding a personal beliefs concerning homosexuality, drugs, religion, abortion, etc. However, in my opinion, there is something wrong with stopping someone from engaging in any consentful action in which there is no harm done to anyone who does not consent.

If you want to destroy your body with heroin, then go for it. If you kill somebody while you are cracked out, then your crime is murder. It is not drug abuse.

If you want to grab your best guy friend and go do whatever it is you want to do, then go for it. If you go grab a child out of a school yard and do with them as you please, your crime is assault and possibly rape. It is not homosexuality.

I could go on, however, most of the people reading this will get the point.

When it comes to abortion, I think those in favor of "choice" have it wrong. This is because I believe that an unborn baby is in fact a baby, while others might feel it is just a fetus. Therefore, I feel that an abortion is a murder. Until I am presented with indisputable evidence that a baby in the womb is not a human life, then I would rather err on the side of not murdering babies. I feel this way, because I do not know how I would be able to live with myself if I spent my whole life supporting abortion (millions and millions) only to find out somewhere along the line that scientists have concluded and agree that an abortion is in fact murder.
 
#45
#45
I find conservative views on economic issues to be very progressive, so conservative in that respect is a misnomer. Every major economy in the world has been a tax and spend "fuedal" model.
 
#46
#46
This is a conundrum that I've given a good deal of thought. The conclusion that I've come to is that the "left" and the "Right" not only have different views of the role of government, but of acquiring power and influence as well. I think that the "right" these days is primarily about money and power. Use money and power to consolidate one's hold over, well, money and power. As such, this gives the right dominance over the official organs of state and commercial power, both at home and abroad. Conversly, the "left" is primarily about culture and society. Influence culture to change society. This is why the left is dominant in most institutions of art, culture and learning (such as both entertainment and informative media and academia), and use their leverage in those institutions to gradually influence the way people think. When the left engages policy, they more often do so through the courts than through the electoral process because this is typically how they've been more successful.

This is how and why we end up with a corporate elite and state power structure that is generally right wing, but a culture that is liberal. At least that's my hypothesis. Any thoughts?

To be fair, this sometimes goes the other way as well, especially in the realm of economic policy. The neo-classical fads that dominated the '90s: deregulation, privatization, free trade, downsizing, outsourcing, "flexible labor markets", liberalizing financial markets and so on were not universally popular, and often turned out rather calimitous. But they were rammed down the throats of recalcitrant populations and sometimes governments by a minority of wealthy and powerful fiscal conservatives and libertarians.
 
#47
#47
This is how and why we end up with a corporate elite and state power structure that is generally right wing, but a culture that is liberal. At least that's my hypothesis. Any thoughts?
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My thoughts? Neither corporate elite nor state power structure is right wing - numerous examples exist of far right and far left leaning are in both.

Likewise, the culture is not liberal. Many attribute 2004's election to a values based analysis where even dem-leaning groups leaned right based on concerns over culture.

Business and the exercise of power tends to be portrayed as right while culture tends to be portrayed as left.

The perception and the reality are at odds IMHO.
 
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