Why Geno outdid Pat.

#126
#126
Bballnut1952 said:
It was a very good coaching job. But you underestimate the talent on that team.
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Do I ? Holdsclaw was the best player, maybe ever in college and was slightly above average in the WNBA. In fact, I would say Holdsclaw was almost a bust in the WNBA, considering how she dominated in college. Imo, Pat got more out of her in college than any coach ever got out of her as a professional basketball player. Yes, I know Chamique lost her Grandmother and had some mental problems, while she was in the WNBA, still, u have to say, Pat got the most out of her and it's not even close
 
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#128
#128
The Dog said:
Do I ? Holdsclaw was the best player, maybe ever in college and was slightly above average in the WNBA. In fact, I would say Holdsclaw was almost a bust in the WNBA, considering how she dominated in college. Imo, Pat got more out of her in college than any coach ever got out of her as a professional basketball player. Yes, I know Chamique lost her Grandmother and had some mental problems, while she was in the WNBA, still, u have to say, Pat got the most out of her and it's not even close
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I will always remember that unlikely championship run in 1996-7. Holdsclaw played off the charts during the NCAA tournament. She was surrounded by some good players - Butts and Elzy were freshmen; Kellie Jolly was a sophomore (with her legendary in-season return from an ACL); plus Abbie Conklin; Pashen Thompson

But if you subtract Holdsclaw from that equation, you have a team that would have done well just to make the sweet 16.

Coach Summit did an amazing job to keep the team together despite a very tough season and a lot of adversity but Holdsclaw's transcendent performance goes beyond X-O coaching.

For Holdsclaw, the biggest benefit of CPS was providing an emotional anchor/mother figure that her kept grounded. That foundation seemed to be lacking during her WNBA years.

Nonetheless, Holdsclaw's pro career started out great. Rookie of the year, an Olympic gold medal, and she averaged a 20-10 double-double in her 4th season with the Washington Mystics but then the depression struggles really started to take a toll.

Chamique Holdsclaw - Wikipedia
 
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#129
#129
The Dog said:
Do I ? Holdsclaw was the best player, maybe ever in college and was slightly above average in the WNBA. In fact, I would say Holdsclaw was almost a bust in the WNBA, considering how she dominated in college. Imo, Pat got more out of her in college than any coach ever got out of her as a professional basketball player. Yes, I know Chamique lost her Grandmother and had some mental problems, while she was in the WNBA, still, u have to say, Pat got the most out of her and it's not even close
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Yes you do.

You concede how good Holdsclaw was in college, then proceed to critique her play in the WNBA, even minimizing her mental health issues.

I thought we were discussing the talent on the 10 loss NC team of 1996-97. What does her WNBA career have to do with that. Even so, she had a very good career over her 11 years in the W.

Chamique Holdsclaw - WNBA.com - Official Site of the WNBA

The true comparison would be the talent of that Tennessee team compared to the rest of WCBB. I believe that with Holdsclaw, the Lady Vols had plenty of talent to win it all. Your original post on this topic made it seem that Pat won with a bunch of scrubs.
 
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#130
#130
madtownvol said:
I will always remember that unlikely championship 96-97 run. Holdsclaw played off the charts over the course of the NCAA series. She was surrounded by some good players - Butts and Elzy were freshmen; Kellie Jolly was sophomore (with her legendary in-season return from an ACL); Abbie Conklin; Pashen Thompson

But if you subtract Holdsclaw from that equation, you have a team that would have done well just to make the sweet 16. Summit did an amazing to keep the team together despite a very tough season and a lot of adversity but Holdsclaw's transcendent performance almost goes beyond X-O coaching.

For Holdsclaw, the biggest benefit of CPS was providing an emotional anchor/mother figure that kept grounded. That foundation seemed to be lacking during her WNBA years.

Nonetheless, Holdsclaw's pro career started out great. Rookie of the year, an Olympic gold medal, she averaged a 20-10 double-double in her 4th season with the Washington Mystics but then the depression struggles really started to take a toll after that.

Chamique Holdsclaw - Wikipedia
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Exactly
CPS coached the best out of her through good and bad outside influences
well thought out post.!
 
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#131
#131
Pat Summit may have been passed in wins, championships, etc, but Pat did more for the game than Geno ever thought about doing. Geno alienated the game due to his piss poor attitude. Perhaps that contributes why his teams are slipping lately. Pat always knew what to say, and always was a positive influence no matter the circumstances, Geno was the opposite. The character of Pat means much more than wins or championships. Don’t even try to compare the two, cause Pat wins that by a landslide.
 
#132
#132
Bballnut1952 said:
Yes you do.

You concede how good Holdsclaw was in college, then proceed to critique her play in the WNBA, even minimizing her mental health issues.

I thought we were discussing the talent on the 10 loss NC team of 1996-97. What does her WNBA career have to do with that. Even so, she had a very good career over her 11 years in the W.

Chamique Holdsclaw - WNBA.com - Official Site of the WNBA

The true comparison would be the talent of that Tennessee team compared to the rest of WCBB. I believe that with Holdsclaw, the Lady Vols had plenty of talent to win it all. Your original post on this topic made it seem that Pat won with a bunch of scrubs.
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See @madtownvol, he said it better than me. Sweet 16 talent and won a championship with 10 losses, best coaching job of any of Pat's and Geno's careers. Butts was a very good player, but it never really clicked until her senior year, imo. So u have a freshman Elzy, Butts, a sophomore Kelly back from injury, Pashen and Abby, who Pat always had to ride hard to get the best out of her. Yes, Holdsclaw, debatably the greatest women's college basketball player, but hell, Jordan still needed Worthy and Perkins. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
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#133
#133
The Dog said:
See @madtownvol, he said it better than me. Sweet 16 talent and won a championship with 10 losses, best coaching job of any of Pat's and Geno's careers. Butts was a very good player, but it never really clicked until her senior year, imo. So u have a freshman Elzy, Butts, a sophomore Kelly back from injury, Pashen and Abby, who Pat always had to ride hard to get the best out of her. Yes, Holdsclaw, debatably the greatest women's college basketball player, but hell, Jordan still needed Worthy and Perkins. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
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I mostly agree. It was a great coaching job. Any time a team wins a championship it’s a great coaching job.

Kind of like Taurasi’s junior and senior seasons. Great players can carry her teammates.
 
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#134
#134
Pat built women's basketball. I suspect even Geno would admit she paved the way for the sport to get exposure in the media. She was the pioneer. Both Pat and Geno did have some help along the way. While Pat came before Title IX, it's passage helped and UT was willing to create a separate women's athletic department that while not well funded at least gave her a little autonomy. She took what little she was given, made it grow, and was a tireless supporter for the game.

Geno walked into a somewhat similar situation in that he was starting from scratch. That being said, it would be silly to ignore the fact the program was in the backyard of ESPN and the major media hubs in NYC and Boston. Lobo was a great face for the program and while that 1995 team definitely deserves their recognition and made a place in history I have no doubt their geography helped get them publicity, which created more publicity, which made them a national brand.

They probably have more in common than some may think. I haven't always exactly liked Geno's demeanor or attitude but no one can deny what he has accomplished. His players who stick it out seem to adore him and he has mellowed a great deal with age. We will never know how much Pat's illness impacted her final few seasons but I sensed at one point around 2011 that it wasn't the same program or team I was accustomed to seeing. Still, when she had to step down I wasn't sad but rather wanted to congratulate her on a job well done and know she did as much as she could.

I loved Summitt as a coach and think she was the ideal ambassador for the game. Does it really matter who is the greatest? Both have their strengths, weaknesses, moments of greatness and moments where they were less than role models. The legacy of women's basketball will always be at UT and for good reason. But that's no reason to not tip the hat to Geno's accomplishments and consistency. Pat worked hard but I am confident so has Geno. I've never seen a reason to run down Geno even though UT and Pat were favorites of mine from an early age.
 
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#135
#135
TJVol95 said:
He cheated. That’s why Pat washed her hands if him.
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The only violation was the Athletic Dept calling ESPN for a tour of their facilities in Bristol CT. A tour that was Free to the public! I have been there numerous times. I live across the street.
 
#136
#136
Geno could never outdo Pat regardless of his gaudy stats, milestones, and achievements. Pat always did it the right way, whereas Geno built his resume and flourished in the grayest areas of wcbb. Pat is the pioneer, the first and foremost when it comes to women's collegiate athletics. Her career just ran out of time, just as Geno's eventually will. I also think Geno is/was very fortunate to have such an incredible assistant like Chris Daley for the entirety of his career, who doesn't get enough credit for the role she's played that program's success. Imagine what more Pat would have accomplished in 38 years had she had an assistant of Daley's caliber.
 
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#138
#138
PointGuard said:
These type threads tend to be responded to emotionally rather than factually. Here is the FACT about NC’s. We played in 4 NC games together. Result. UCONN 4 Lady Vols 0

Emotional based threads seldom turn out as desired because those that are sticklers for facts correct with facts. Gule was 100% correct. It should have ended that way. His facts were facts. It doesn’t make him a bad fan. Since when is honesty wrong?
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I do not recall a single time when Uconn beat Tennessee when Tennessee had the better team. Even in '95, do you not remember the injuries to some of our best players prior to the championship game? The simple fact is that Geno won when he had the better team and Pat won when she had the better team--except in '97 when she beat him in the elite eight. She simply outcoached him in that game.

Keep in mind that she had a three game winning streak (two at Uconn) when the series stopped. The truth is that Pat would not cheat. Geno had no problem cheating and engaging in dirty recruiting. Pat would not get in the mud. And the sad reality is that Pat had dementia far longer than most of us realized. She lost her best coach (N. Caldwell)--the one that she relied on the most--and we know that the years following her last championship were not years when Pat was Pat. This is just a reality. Furthermore, Pat was suffering the debilitating effects of RA and left recruiting up to Holly because flying exacerbated her condition. Therefore, she missed out on some great players whom Holly deemed not SEC material who went on and proved to be great players at other schools. This is not revisionist history: this is a fact.

It is totally unfair to judge Pat's record after her last championship because Pat was not Pat. But what I truly believe is that had Pat been healthy, she would have won more championships. She hated to lose more than she loved winning. She had a unique ability to get most players to buy into her system. There were very few great players to leave the program.

And she would adapt her system to fit the players. One poster stated that she did not teach offense. I had the honor of attending many of her practices and I saw her coach offense as intensely as she taught defense. I saw her alter her offenses to fit the players. (The triple post, for example, when she had the Meeks)
I also attended a few of Holly's practices (and Coach Barnes). Night and day with Holly's. Coach Barnes wants perfection as did Pat and makes his players go over and over and over until they get it right. That is what I saw with Pat's practices.

I would take Pat any day over Geno in her prime. She obeyed the NCAA rules (she did not abuse the number of practice hours permitted as does Geno); she never cheated to get players; and for the most part, she got the most out of her players. Geno has been fortunate to keep his health and recruit the best players in the land. Unlike men's basketball, there has not been that much parity. He has been able to handpick his players, particularly since Tennessee has not been a factor in a decade. He will probably win several more championships, but he will never get my respect.
 
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#140
#140
PointGuard said:
If you hire Harry Paretta as a consultant for Offense I think you are acknowledging your offensive schemes are lacking and in need of an overhaul.

If you hire an offensive coach whose m.o. is a 3 ball offense, period, did you hire the correct consultant?
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No, it simply means that Pat was willing to learn from others, a trait that would benefit many egotistical people who think they know everything. Even the great Sabin hires consultants.
 
#142
#142
Bsport said:
I do not recall a single time when Uconn beat Tennessee when Tennessee had the better team.

I read this and thought really? just looked at the 4 championship games CT and Lady Vols played and the rankings going in 1995 CT was #1 LVs #3 2000 CT was #1 and LVs #2 2003 CT #1 and LVs #4
2004 CT #6 and LVs #2

I enjoy the WCBB game and love to witness good coaching..... we have bunch of good coaches in the game....

Whatever ones opinion of Auriemma I think most would think he was/is a good coach

I understand you are highlighting the one on one Pat vs Geno..... but I would not throw away his coaching ability out of hand
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#143
#143
I did not call “Pat” a liar. I said the case against Geno was not “proven” by the appropriate authorities. I wish to hell that it had been.​
 
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#144
#144
gule said:
I did not call “Pat” a liar. I said the case against Geno was not “proven” by the appropriate authorities. I wish to hell that it had been.​
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If it could have been proven it would have been proven given that back in that day anyone who was anyone seemed to have it in for Geno. All the female coaches of the day seemed to despise him including the women refs and mucky mucks of the NCAA. If a hateful jury of your peers can’t pin it on you it’s most likely because there was nothing to pin except for again - emotion. We were on the loosing side of a very over heated rivalry
 
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#150
#150
gule said:
Yes, but in jest. Though the espn thingy is spot on.
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I have no problem with your comment and don’t disagree about the ESPN reference but again with “emotion” as a built in reference. I feel ESPN in no way makes policy or decides anything for the NCAA. I’ve always felt that “St. Pat” was the NCAA’s view of CPS , and rightfully so. That is the basis of my belief that if there was something there emphasize something really there than Geno and UConn would have been held accountable. No one liked Geno at that time except for his fans and a couple male coaches
 
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