Why Private Health Care doesn't work

#501
#501
fl0at said:
Most other nations don't have our: 1) melting pot culture, which carries with it all sorts of genetic and culture issues pertaining to lifestyle, nutrition, education, etc; 2) extremely high levels of obesity attributed to our "rich" lifestyle, which brings with it increased risk of any number of ailments, not limited to a) increased diabetes rates which leads to end system organ damage or b) cardiovascular damage from overeating, lack of exercise and terrible nutrition; 3) lifestyle choices that allow for, and often encourage, destruction and addiction to one's body at an early age; 4) a country with any number of varying geographic differences due to the width and height of this country.

Obviously, people in Florida differ from simple allergy issues than people from Oregon. The issues can definitely be more complex due to geographic location, and this country as several.

Furthermore, cancer mortality rates... anh, debatable usefulness. Incidence and prevalence of disease would be what I would be interested in seeing.

Incidence is new cases. If they have high incidence, then there is a disconnect with education about and effects of various habits.

Prevalence is all cases. If they have low prevalence, then odds are, people are dying from the disease.

I think it would be more appropriate to have low incidence (not a lot of new cases) with high prevalence (would mean that those with the disease are living longer lives, which means better medicine and care).
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Right. I agree that trying to pinpoint the effectiveness of healthcare in the sea of other factors is incredibly difficult. My point is, the people on here talking about how awful other countries healthcare is and how ours is by far the best in the world, are talking out of their ass. I've yet to see any evidence for that, and what evidence I have seen seems to paint a different picture.
 
#502
#502
Ed12111 said:
Right. I agree that trying to pinpoint the effectiveness of healthcare in the sea of other factors is incredibly difficult. My point is, the people on here talking about how awful other countries healthcare is and how ours is by far the best in the world, are talking out of their ass. I've yet to see any evidence for that, and what evidence I have seen seems to paint a different picture.
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Yea. My point was that it is difficult to compare apples to apples when it comes to health care, simply because of demographics.

Even looking within the US, and we'll take infant mortality because I have an article that everyone should read in its entirety, you will see that demographics plays a huge role in medicine; one of the reasons why Memphis has such a high infant mortality rate.

At any rate, read this article. Read it! It is an excellent example of how a superb physician can give his all to a problem, and barely make a dent.

And trust me, Dr. Korones cares. He cares. Read the article. Everyone.

Babies at risk: Memphis confronts infant mortality - USATODAY.com
 
#503
#503
fl0at said:
Yea. My point was that it is difficult to compare apples to apples when it comes to health care, simply because of demographics.

Even looking within the US, and we'll take infant mortality because I have an article that everyone should read in its entirety, you will see that demographics plays a huge role in medicine; one of the reasons why Memphis has such a high infant mortality rate.

At any rate, read this article. Read it! It is an excellent example of how a superb physician can give his all to a problem, and barely make a dent.

And trust me, Dr. Korones cares. He cares. Read the article. Everyone.

Babies at risk: Memphis confronts infant mortality - USATODAY.com
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Sad article. This is why I'd like to see everyone have healthcare. From the article "Doctors and analysts blame broad disparities in access to health care among racial and income groups in the United States".
 
#504
#504
Ed12111 said:
Sad article. This is why I'd like to see everyone have healthcare. From the article "Doctors and analysts blame broad disparities in access to health care among racial and income groups in the United States".
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That is absolutely a part of it, but it is not the whole picture. It is just the most obviously picture.

The truth is, there are options here for health care that are not taken advantage of, and cultural differences that preclude one group from seeing a doctor. There are beliefs, sometimes correctly, that those in the health industry are rather racist. A white doctor might not be able to connect with a black patient; and make no mistake, there is still racial tension that is unlikely to change merely by increased access.

There are also economic reasons listed, someone who is trying to make ends meet might not have time to take off work and might not be granted medical sick days in their employment.

There is limited access to prenatal vitamins, and a lack of education about prenatal vitamins, folate and nutrition.

Then, there are issues at home.

If you note Dr. Korones [close to] final statement, by the time they arrive... it is already too late.
 
#505
#505
fl0at said:
That is absolutely a part of it, but it is not the whole picture. It is just the most obviously picture.

The truth is, there are options here for health care that are not taken advantage of, and cultural differences that preclude one group from seeing a doctor. There are beliefs, sometimes correctly, that those in the health industry are rather racist. A white doctor might not be able to connect with a black patient; and make no mistake, there is still racial tension that is unlikely to change merely by increased access.

There are also economic reasons listed, someone who is trying to make ends meet might not have time to take off work and might not be granted medical sick days in their employment.

There is limited access to prenatal vitamins, and a lack of education about prenatal vitamins, folate and nutrition.

Then, there are issues at home.

If you note Dr. Korones [close to] final statement, by the time they arrive... it is already too late.
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I know that, but I think that statement from the experts themselves is embarrassing for a nation with over 14 trillion in GDP. It's bizarre to me, that we figured out education was important a long long time before we've realized healthcare was.
 
#506
#506
Ed12111 said:
I know that, but I think that statement from the experts themselves is embarrassing for a nation with over 14 trillion in GDP. It's bizarre to me, that we figured out education was important a long long time before we've realized healthcare was.
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We are failing in education as well, though. But, separate issue. Or, maybe a similar issue, depending on trends in education since Dept. Ed.
 
#508
#508
Ed12111 said:
You should just stop. In no way shape or form have you ever even attempted to make a case for your ideas. Instead you just piggyback off others cherry-picked data while ignoring any contradicting data. I don't know why I bother, but how in the Hell is cancer survival rate more important than life span?
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because cancer survival rates are about patients once they initiate care and is only impacted by lifestyle choices and innumerable other factors that can't be impounded into the data. Infant mortality and longevity are probably the two pieces of data that are as impacted by external factors as they are actual care. I don't have any problem calling our system a problem, but not based upon those kind of stats. There is no doubt whatsoever that our care is the most expensive. We also have the highest thresholds for becoming a physician and moving on to specialization. We have more hands in the pie, from patient to provider, than any nation in the world and all of those hands are borderline egregiously compensated. Many of those hands exist because of a convoluted system that has government intervention all over it.

I might not make a case to you, but I suspect that you'll find I can support my ideas just fine, even convincingly if need be.
 
#509
#509
Ed12111 said:
Failing is relative, look at where we were before. Not pretty.
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RELATIVE to the rest of the world, we're getting worse, so where we were before would be a better place. At the high end, our educational outlets and educators are the best in the world. In the mainstream, we're simply checking the blocks and passing kids along.
 
#510
#510
BigPapaVol said:
RELATIVE to the rest of the world, we're getting worse, so where we were before would be a better place. At the high end, our educational outlets and educators are the best in the world. In the mainstream, we're simply checking the blocks and passing kids along.
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We're not getting worse. Everything from the literacy rate to average IQ is higher than it was a hundred years ago. And comparing us to where we were relative to say South Korea isn't a good comparison as some of those countries were in extremely rough shape until recently. Of course, I do agree we should improve our educational system.
 
#511
#511
Ed12111 said:
We're not getting worse. Everything from the literacy rate to average IQ is higher than it was a hundred years ago. And comparing us to where we were relative to say South Korea isn't a good comparison as some of those countries were in extremely rough shape until recently. Of course, I do agree we should improve our educational system.
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Relative to 100 years ago is immaterial and average IQ is simply about how we measure it or the gene pool, but has nothing to do with education.

My point was using your "relative" measure, we're getting worse. Much of the world has passed us by. Some of it is education, some of it is social engineering.
 
#512
#512
BigPapaVol said:
Relative to 100 years ago is immaterial and average IQ is simply about how we measure it or the gene pool, but has nothing to do with education.

My point was using your "relative" measure, we're getting worse. Much of the world has passed us by. Some of it is education, some of it is social engineering.
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Relative to 100 years ago is extremely material when the question was where we are now compared to the past.
 
#513
#513
Ed12111 said:
Relative to 100 years ago is extremely material when the question was where we are now compared to the past.
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I missed the comparison to the distant past. I'm talking about national education system as it compares / compared to the rest of the world. In that respect, we've been getting worse for a while, save the top end, where we've been getting better for ages.
 
#514
#514
BigPapaVol said:
I missed the comparison to the distant past. I'm talking about national education system as it compares / compared to the rest of the world. In that respect, we've been getting worse for a while, save the top end, where we've been getting better for ages.
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That is true.
 
#515
#515
Ed12111 said:
Cancer survival like every other metric has dozens of variables. I'm assuming that even after playing with the data, the US does "very well" and not the best. The point remains, if the US's system which is different than most other nations healthcare is so much better then we should be the very best. Especially considering we are the wealthiest nation and the most technologically advanced. Most of you are claiming these other nations healthcare is such a mess, but can't find a lick of evidence to support it.
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I'm not claiming other countries systems are a mess at all.

I am defending accusations that HC in the U.S. is somehow subpar.

The oft-cited WHO data is heavily based on a metric of "equitable access to care". This is the U.S. HC system's greatest fault since we have a high number of uninsured. Claiming that in and of itself is rationale for a single payer system or a national HC system does not follow. There are other means to improve access to coverage that don't rely on single payer or national provision.

The second criticism of U.S. HC is the cost is high relative to other countries. Again, the problem doesn't point to the cure. If you look at HC metrics for those that receive care the U.S. is at the top. You get what you pay for. Additionally, the U.S. disproportionately pays for medical advances.

Bottomline, if you are insured and get sick in the U.S. there is no better country in the world to receive care.

If you want to argue equity, that is one issue. If you want to argue pure quality of care for those who get it then the U.S. is at the top.

No one wants people to be denied care. The core question is what do you sacrifice to ensure everyone gets care and further, how important is it to you that everyone gets the same care.

The fault of the current U.S. system is not quality, it is access. Solving access does not require single payer nor government provision.
 
#516
#516
No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.
 
#517
#517
Fyodor Dostoevsky said:
No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.
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The structure of your post seems vaguely familiar. Something about the marginal width... by chance, are you related to anyone else on this board?
 
#521
#521
Fyodor Dostoevsky said:
No. If you do not know this piece of literary history, it explains so much.

Hint: John Donne
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Well, I'm glad to have given you all you need to form an intelligent and well versed opinion of me after your extensive amount of time spent on this board...
 
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